Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
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North King
blech
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Here's my guess as to climates. Gray is mountain, Dark Yellow is Plains, Tan is desert, Light Green is temperate, Red is Tropical.
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC: Here it is, the beginning anyway.
It could seem to somebody that I'm using the Christian calendar. I'm not. Technically I am, as all dates are the same. However, this local calendar as actually different - BC means Brahailla Caaho (Until Caaho), AD means Ael Darini (Of Darini). If I remember this, some guy named Darini will get to found the city of Caaho and become its first ruler.
Note that North (and other) America is likely to have different tribes and cultures altogether. Olmecs, proto-Mayans and proto-Incans will still exist though, in the beginning.
All comments/suggestions are welcome. I will especially be glad to see any additional plausible "future civilization" sites (so far, I've got the Great Lakes, California, Venezuela, Argentina. And, ofcourse, Puerto Rico. Not much. Can anybody suggest something for "East Coast" or, say, Brazil?).
Predictions for the "First Classical Era, 1000 BC - 300 BC" are encouraged.
Btw, does anyone think that there is a sufficient possibility of a trireme-level ship establishing some sort of a trade link between Mesoamerica and the Andes?
Will Work On A Map.
IC:
History of Horse World 4000-1000 BC. Era of First Civilizations.
First of all, lets deal with the Old World, where horses died out. Sumeria, Phoenicea, Mycenae, Middle Kingdom Egypt still exist and are well. Harappans were eventually overran by barbarian hordes (although much later), but formed a new state of Dravidia in Deccan. In China, Longshanese Empire slowly rose. Back in Europe, all as it was though Dacians and Thracians continued to be nomads, while the Scythians never came to be. This eventually led to the Karthavea, a Caucasian civilization on Crimea and in the nearby areas. The Etruscans were eradicated by the Celts, as were the Latins. The Myceneans still survived, and subdued Minoans. Mycenae and Phoenicea still did enter a naval colonization race, but it was much later and more steady. Sumerian culture remained, although eventually subjugated by Arameans which caused a Hebrew exodus to Anatolia, where the new land of "Abrahamea" filled in the vacuum of power. Arameans were, meanwhile, assimilated by the conquered Sumerians. Egypt remained where it was. In the overall, migration was slower, and so was urbanization. Technology dragged along much slower, and all the Old World empies stagnated. Occasionally, succesful (or close to success) barbarian raids breathed back life into those empires, but they soon stopped again.
Now for the (more) interesting parts.
The early New World civilization was not too unsimilar from our own, it was based in Mississippi area, Mexico, Yucatan and Andes.
In Mississippi, the first civilization appeared circa 4000 BC, as did the one in Mexico. The early Mississipian civilization was actually divided into numerous civilized groups, mostly unifying to fight off nomadic barbarians coming from the north. This (the raids) was a powerful stimul, ofcourse, and led to beginning of urbanization. Cities of Avabja, Ereniji, Varkaa, Howatta and so on were founded by likewise-named cultures. They were located mostly in the Mississippi delta, some to the west from the river and a few between Mississippi and Arkansas. Those groups also begun developing agriculture quickly, while learning to use copper weapons and bowmen in battles with the northern raiders. Kingship system soon arose, while in the more southern cities, such as Howatta and Avabja, some of the shamans converted to a somewhat influential priest caste. There were, ofcourse, several attempts to unify two or more of those cultures, but there was no such lasting "empire". At most, several city-states formed short-term alliances against whoever was trying to "unify" them. That was the "status quo" of the area until circa 1600 BC. Not even the legendary ruler of Howatta, Hamajaka, managed to break this rule.
Around 1600 BC, Varkaa, the northernmost city-state, was pillaged and conquered by the Hodenaan raiders. The refugees fled, mostly to the small yet promising city of Ojibva... This allowed the local rulers (whose names, according to the old local tradition, were kept a secret and a number was used instead - this was abolished under the Third Dynasty) to build up a powerbase. They also formed the first local "standing" army, or at least, it was standing in comparsion to the militias of other cities. Led by "the Fourth", the Ojibvans conquered the weakened Howatta, and then defeated the enemy forces at Eegnajna. Although only the Mississippi delta was united at first, this was a very important part of history. The Messipian Empire was founded, and started consolidating its new territory. An advanced buerocracy was created. The priests begun somewhat decreasing in power and influence, although, on the other hand, the caste system was being established in this period. "Warrior" and "Ruler" castes became the most influential. Messipia slowly, but surely, began subjugating other southern states, and warded off several barbarian attacks from the north.
To the west, there were numerous barbaric Gabalese tribes that nevertheless were too disunited to threaten Messipia. These were, perhaps, the first tribes to adopt horsemanship, and from there, numerous raiders were already then beginning their raids against Messipia and the Mexican civilization.
Around the Great Lakes and in OTL California, the first seeds of the future civilization were in place... Although in the former, these areas were still occupied by warlike Hodenaan and other barbarians, and in the latter, conditions were harsh, primitive chiefdoms, villages and agriculture were spreading here as well.
Further south, the early Olmec civilization was appearing, however, many of their early settlements were destroyed by the Mekhika (Mexica) nomads from the north. They utilized horses and camels alike (although horses were much more useful). Remaining Olmecs fled somewhat further east, where they begun settling down again. The formation of their culture was much faster then in OTL, and eventually they, already under a Mekhikian ruler, developped their own kingdom on the coastline. They had several cities, and profited from the infant maritime trade with Mayans, and inland trade btween different cities and with the Mekhikians.
Maya developped much faster then in OTL as well. Although at first, the horses had little use there, the Mekhikian invasion circa 1900 BC and the introduction of the wheel changed things radically. Early Mayan villages, much like the Messipian ones, soon turned into fortified settlements, and, eventually, cities. Chariots were put to a good use by the Tikalese ruler, Itzatikal (circa 1300 BC), who conquered many neighboring cities and introduced the limited human sacrifice (mostly, enemy rulers, priests and nobles were the ones sacrificed, but ofcourse there were exceptions) cult which not only made Mayans fairly unique, but also gave a very good religious backing to wars. Out of this period of strife, Tikal, which employed Mekhikian mercenaries, was the natural winner (especially after the psychological damage their use of chariots inflicted on the enemies at Holmul), unifying numerous central and southern Mayan cities and forcing the rest to pay tribute.
In the Carribbean (in this world, it is known as the Nahalequan, or "Mediterranean") Sea, the Caribs were only beginning their raids. Nobody could possibly have predicted the role Caribs would eventually play (OOC: ah, ze suspence!)...
The Arawaks, to the south from the Carribbean, were isolated and backwards, especially as horses were yet to reach it. The Carib raids were less devastating then in OTL, though, and thus the Arawaks are somewhat better off.
And further south, in the Andes, the early Andean cultures are developping. These are still little different from OTL, although PERHAPS there is some slight butterfly effect.
It could seem to somebody that I'm using the Christian calendar. I'm not. Technically I am, as all dates are the same. However, this local calendar as actually different - BC means Brahailla Caaho (Until Caaho), AD means Ael Darini (Of Darini). If I remember this, some guy named Darini will get to found the city of Caaho and become its first ruler.
Note that North (and other) America is likely to have different tribes and cultures altogether. Olmecs, proto-Mayans and proto-Incans will still exist though, in the beginning.
All comments/suggestions are welcome. I will especially be glad to see any additional plausible "future civilization" sites (so far, I've got the Great Lakes, California, Venezuela, Argentina. And, ofcourse, Puerto Rico. Not much. Can anybody suggest something for "East Coast" or, say, Brazil?).
Predictions for the "First Classical Era, 1000 BC - 300 BC" are encouraged.
Btw, does anyone think that there is a sufficient possibility of a trireme-level ship establishing some sort of a trade link between Mesoamerica and the Andes?
Will Work On A Map.
IC:
History of Horse World 4000-1000 BC. Era of First Civilizations.
First of all, lets deal with the Old World, where horses died out. Sumeria, Phoenicea, Mycenae, Middle Kingdom Egypt still exist and are well. Harappans were eventually overran by barbarian hordes (although much later), but formed a new state of Dravidia in Deccan. In China, Longshanese Empire slowly rose. Back in Europe, all as it was though Dacians and Thracians continued to be nomads, while the Scythians never came to be. This eventually led to the Karthavea, a Caucasian civilization on Crimea and in the nearby areas. The Etruscans were eradicated by the Celts, as were the Latins. The Myceneans still survived, and subdued Minoans. Mycenae and Phoenicea still did enter a naval colonization race, but it was much later and more steady. Sumerian culture remained, although eventually subjugated by Arameans which caused a Hebrew exodus to Anatolia, where the new land of "Abrahamea" filled in the vacuum of power. Arameans were, meanwhile, assimilated by the conquered Sumerians. Egypt remained where it was. In the overall, migration was slower, and so was urbanization. Technology dragged along much slower, and all the Old World empies stagnated. Occasionally, succesful (or close to success) barbarian raids breathed back life into those empires, but they soon stopped again.
Now for the (more) interesting parts.
The early New World civilization was not too unsimilar from our own, it was based in Mississippi area, Mexico, Yucatan and Andes.
In Mississippi, the first civilization appeared circa 4000 BC, as did the one in Mexico. The early Mississipian civilization was actually divided into numerous civilized groups, mostly unifying to fight off nomadic barbarians coming from the north. This (the raids) was a powerful stimul, ofcourse, and led to beginning of urbanization. Cities of Avabja, Ereniji, Varkaa, Howatta and so on were founded by likewise-named cultures. They were located mostly in the Mississippi delta, some to the west from the river and a few between Mississippi and Arkansas. Those groups also begun developing agriculture quickly, while learning to use copper weapons and bowmen in battles with the northern raiders. Kingship system soon arose, while in the more southern cities, such as Howatta and Avabja, some of the shamans converted to a somewhat influential priest caste. There were, ofcourse, several attempts to unify two or more of those cultures, but there was no such lasting "empire". At most, several city-states formed short-term alliances against whoever was trying to "unify" them. That was the "status quo" of the area until circa 1600 BC. Not even the legendary ruler of Howatta, Hamajaka, managed to break this rule.
Around 1600 BC, Varkaa, the northernmost city-state, was pillaged and conquered by the Hodenaan raiders. The refugees fled, mostly to the small yet promising city of Ojibva... This allowed the local rulers (whose names, according to the old local tradition, were kept a secret and a number was used instead - this was abolished under the Third Dynasty) to build up a powerbase. They also formed the first local "standing" army, or at least, it was standing in comparsion to the militias of other cities. Led by "the Fourth", the Ojibvans conquered the weakened Howatta, and then defeated the enemy forces at Eegnajna. Although only the Mississippi delta was united at first, this was a very important part of history. The Messipian Empire was founded, and started consolidating its new territory. An advanced buerocracy was created. The priests begun somewhat decreasing in power and influence, although, on the other hand, the caste system was being established in this period. "Warrior" and "Ruler" castes became the most influential. Messipia slowly, but surely, began subjugating other southern states, and warded off several barbarian attacks from the north.
To the west, there were numerous barbaric Gabalese tribes that nevertheless were too disunited to threaten Messipia. These were, perhaps, the first tribes to adopt horsemanship, and from there, numerous raiders were already then beginning their raids against Messipia and the Mexican civilization.
Around the Great Lakes and in OTL California, the first seeds of the future civilization were in place... Although in the former, these areas were still occupied by warlike Hodenaan and other barbarians, and in the latter, conditions were harsh, primitive chiefdoms, villages and agriculture were spreading here as well.
Further south, the early Olmec civilization was appearing, however, many of their early settlements were destroyed by the Mekhika (Mexica) nomads from the north. They utilized horses and camels alike (although horses were much more useful). Remaining Olmecs fled somewhat further east, where they begun settling down again. The formation of their culture was much faster then in OTL, and eventually they, already under a Mekhikian ruler, developped their own kingdom on the coastline. They had several cities, and profited from the infant maritime trade with Mayans, and inland trade btween different cities and with the Mekhikians.
Maya developped much faster then in OTL as well. Although at first, the horses had little use there, the Mekhikian invasion circa 1900 BC and the introduction of the wheel changed things radically. Early Mayan villages, much like the Messipian ones, soon turned into fortified settlements, and, eventually, cities. Chariots were put to a good use by the Tikalese ruler, Itzatikal (circa 1300 BC), who conquered many neighboring cities and introduced the limited human sacrifice (mostly, enemy rulers, priests and nobles were the ones sacrificed, but ofcourse there were exceptions) cult which not only made Mayans fairly unique, but also gave a very good religious backing to wars. Out of this period of strife, Tikal, which employed Mekhikian mercenaries, was the natural winner (especially after the psychological damage their use of chariots inflicted on the enemies at Holmul), unifying numerous central and southern Mayan cities and forcing the rest to pay tribute.
In the Carribbean (in this world, it is known as the Nahalequan, or "Mediterranean") Sea, the Caribs were only beginning their raids. Nobody could possibly have predicted the role Caribs would eventually play (OOC: ah, ze suspence!)...
The Arawaks, to the south from the Carribbean, were isolated and backwards, especially as horses were yet to reach it. The Carib raids were less devastating then in OTL, though, and thus the Arawaks are somewhat better off.
And further south, in the Andes, the early Andean cultures are developping. These are still little different from OTL, although PERHAPS there is some slight butterfly effect.
das
Regeneration In Process
What? No comments? Is it that scary?
North King
blech
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It's probably quite good, but I haven't read all of it yet, just skimmed. It still looks good. 
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
It looks good. Lots of dense text with names I don't know scares me. It might help if you provided little maps like you did in your NES2 II timeline.
das
Regeneration In Process
Some people I've talked to seem to agree with Xen, other say that it will do well enough. And besides, though chariots will not neccessarily be put to a good use, they are sure to scare the hell out of troops who never saw horses before... I realize their use is limited in Yucatan, it is far more spread out in the Mekhikian area.
das
Regeneration In Process
This is the map. Hope you like it.
So, I undesrtand that I should continue this, right? Though I still need those suggestions.
So, I undesrtand that I should continue this, right? Though I still need those suggestions.
das
Regeneration In Process
Will you be happier if I just change them to Celts?
Tartessos prospered from the trade with Greeks and Phoeniceans. The Old World civilizations are a lot less mobile and less advanced then in OTL, so Tartessos is unlikely to be of any importance.
Tartessos prospered from the trade with Greeks and Phoeniceans. The Old World civilizations are a lot less mobile and less advanced then in OTL, so Tartessos is unlikely to be of any importance.
- nah, woudl rather you portrayed the etruscans, whom were apperntlyl settled by then.das said:
I dont see how lack of horses stopsb]seafareing[/b] civlizations from developing, and prospering- indeed, by this time, horses didint mattermuch- sea trade and technology was already widelyl used, and in a world without horses, but with ships, it slikelly to make naval progression all the much faster, and for empires in the old world to be mostlly coastal, sea born affiars (until the romans come about, witht hier roads and infantry based armies- indeed, with no horses, a roman legion would have no peer on the battle feild)
North King
blech
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Xen said:
I assume you have read Guns, Germs, and Steel. It turns out that without horses or any other kind of domestic draft animal, not only is transportation and warfare slowed, but so is the development of agriculture. Indeed, all agriculture must be limited to areas that can be plowed with a simple hand plow. This means far lower populations, and thus far smaller nations, etc.
North King said:
no one ever said cattle was unavaible, only horses- and as you will do wee to note, it is cattle, and thie roffshoot oxen that do most of the agricultural work throughout history- horses being important to some, but not not nearlyl overall.
only horses dont exist in the old world - all other domestic draft animals do, which means horses dont count for much of anything- they are important in some particuler events in human history, btu have little impac ton the technoloigical development of human history, for what few real important roles they did serve in agriculture could be equally, if not exceeded by other draft naimals.
North King
blech
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Xen said:and yes, i have read guns germsn and stell- its usuaually me pointing out to you the facts that need to be considered from the points that book presents
Bah... What can I say? We're both biased for our respective cultures.
North King
blech
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Xen said:
We don't know that for certain. Besides, oxen are still less efficient than horses. Regardless, I think das should give us an answer.
Note: The Incans had llamas, which like oxen could not be ridden, but could probably pull plows. Yet they were very late in developing civilization...
not for pulling plows, and similer agricultural needs- indeed, they are far superior.North King said:
moreover, when has a hors eprovided milk for cheese, or other foods? when has hors ebeen a primary source for leather and meat?
one problem- by the time of the egyptian civlizatyion, cows, and oxen were both already domesticated- problem is null and void.
North King
blech
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Xen said:
Actually, a horse is more efficient, but more expensive.
Never said it was.
Perhaps... We shall see. Das?
Besides which, I don't think the western societies would have developed nearly as much. The horse was simply too essential for any nation beyond that of a low level agricultural state in Europe.
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