Alternate Unit Upgrade Paths (G&K and future patches/expansions)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Anyone00, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Anyone00

    Anyone00 Chieftain

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    O.K. this is inspired by the entire Pikemen-upgrade-to-Lancers thing.

    First off: Lancers are good units and I see the underlying reasoning of upgrading an anti-cavalry specialist to an anti-cavalry specialist but I do have issues with the upgrade path.

    This is how I think it might be preferable:
    Spearmen => Pikemen => Gatling Gun => Machine Gun => Mechanized Infantry

    My line of reason sees Pikemen as more of defensive specialist that doesn't require a strategic resource than strictly an anti-cavalry specialist hence them upgrading to Gatling Gun. Admittedly this causes them go an entire era without an upgrade. Also: requiring the Gatling Guns and Machine Guns to set-up somewhat like artillery could also be added.
    Sorry, no more range 2 or terrain ignoring Gatling/Machine Guns.

    Lancers => Tank Destroyers => Helicopter Gunship

    Yes, Lancers actually start out this line (maybe given even a further boost because of it).
    Anti-Tank Guns are still there in the same place in the tech tree for civs without (or out of) oil and eventually upgrade to Mechanized Infantry.
    Tank Destroyers (new unit): Same place in the tech tree as Anti-Tank Guns and cost a bit more hammers, requires oil, keeps the cavalry's 33 penalty for city attack, has a movement of 5, really good at attacking tanks but trying to take on entrench infantry of similar tech level will get them quickly destroyed. On the issue of the look of the tank destroyers they should probably have an open top with a visible crew so it's not mistaken for tanks.
    Basically: Anti-cavalry fast attacker => Anti-armor fast(er) attacker => Anti-armor fast(er)(er) attacker

    Archers => Composite Bowmen => Crossbowmen => Congreve Rocket Men => Mortar Men => Mechanized Infantry
    Congreve Rocket Men (new unit): Maybe just Rocket Men so it's more generic. Needs to come after Musketmen and before Riflemen so Chemistry could be a good place for it but upgrading your siege weapon line and archer line with the same tech might be a bit much. This unit would have the same roll as the units in the line that came before it.
    Mortar Men (new unit): Great War to Vietnam (and a bit post) era mortar squads. Replaceable Parts, Plastics, and Ballistics are good candidates for this unit's place in the tech tree. This unit would have the same roll as the units in the line that came before it.

    So what do you think the upgrade paths for units should be (diffrent, the same)?
     
  2. Peacemongerer

    Peacemongerer Prince

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    Having gatling guns and machine guns need to set-up makes them essentially useless in comparison to artillery. A fleeing melee unit would get hit by them once, but then after moving 2 tiles away, the gatling gun couldn't attack him bc he had to waste a move to set-up. It'd make them painfully useless except to defend cities, a role which artillery are arguably better for.

    I can see making pikemen upgrade to gatling guns, but that ultimately breaks the idea of extending the ranged unit line. Perhaps add a forked upgrade tree in which the pikeman's owner may upgrade to either musketman or lancer.
     
  3. Beefie

    Beefie Warlord

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    I had a similar idea to you playing today, keeping the spear line as a defensive line with:

    Spearmen => Pikemen => Arquebusiers => Gatling Gun => Machine Gun => Anti-tank gun

    With Arquebusiers being the first 1-range unit, trying to bridge the game, and also make the anti-tank gun a 1-range unit. but I agree with Peacemongerer that they shouldn't have to set up.
    I was also thinking they should take more damage in flank attacks to encourage maintaining a good defensive line.

    I do agree with you that I'd like to see the 2-range archery line maintained but not end at mech inf, there should be an appropriate unit.

    Then with the lancers
    Lancers => Dragoons => Helicopter Gunship
    to have a highly mobile, offensive unit line
     
  4. orikos

    orikos Praetorian from Orikosia

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    What do you think about this:
    Spearman => Pikeman => Arquebusiers => Fusiliers => Bazooka
     
  5. GenjiKhan

    GenjiKhan Emperor

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    Unless you change Gatling Gun/Machine Gun to meele type,this kind of upgrade will become so much broken and will be the reason for so much ranting than the upgrade path of Pikeman>Lancers .
     
  6. Beefie

    Beefie Warlord

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    What makes you think that Genji? Think they'll be too strong?

    In my head I was trying to maintain the spear line as a strong defensive unit, even thinking of reducing there base strength but giving them a bonus on defense. I always imagined they'd work better as primarily used for defensive wars or as escorts to your range and siege units.

    That's also why i suggested a weakness to flanking for them as well, so when in a proper defensive line they'd be hard to crack but if outnumbered they would be quickly swamped.

    Just the way the cookie crumbles, at least for me!
     
  7. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

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    Because they do not share the same promotions, the whole reason why gatling guns and mgs were added to the game was to have a ranged unit line until the end.
     
  8. Beefie

    Beefie Warlord

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    Ay, yea I suppose that is a roadblock. Redistribute promotions on upgrade? grasping at straws now, probably would be simpler to make them melee, though I liked the aspect of the 1-range range as it adds to the tactics.
     
  9. orikos

    orikos Praetorian from Orikosia

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    I suggested:
    Spearman => Pikeman => Arquebusiers => Fusiliers => Bazooka
     
  10. Kurtbob

    Kurtbob Prince

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    I think your upgrade path is fine. Just make Gats and Machine Guns melee. I like that G&K introduced Gattling and Machine Guns to continue the archery path, but I don't like losing 1 range after upgrading my crossbowmen. They just need some new units for the 2 ranged unit upgrade path.
     
  11. GenjiKhan

    GenjiKhan Emperor

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    There is a mod at Steam Workshop that makes Gatling gun/Machine Gun have 2 range instead of 1 .
     
  12. orikos

    orikos Praetorian from Orikosia

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    Why there aren't units of light cavalry ?
    I have ideas for light cavalry:
    Light Horse => Light Cavalry => Cuirassier => Armoured Car => Light Tank => Armoured Cavalry
     

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