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Alternative Strategies, Settling in Place, & a Rant.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by LegioCorvus, Jun 26, 2010.

  1. LegioCorvus

    LegioCorvus Chieftain

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    RFC was the first mod I tried, sadly earlier this year after owning Civ4 for almost 5 years, and I wasn't very pleased with it. I was enjoying the puzzle aspect of the game, trying to get the UHV with Egypt, but was having problems with my first few tries. So I go to check out some strategies, and instead of "try to do this, or this, or this" it was "Step 1, Step 2, Step 3." For some reason that really bugged me. It gave me the impression that there were very few right ways to achieve a UHV, and it came down to finding the perfect sequence & starting location, instead of trying to find your own unique way of accomplishing said UHV. It also didn't seem very historical, what with the moving of the founding city & the necessity of Stonehenge in the Egyptian UHV. So I dropped RFC, and moved on...

    I came back to RFC a few days ago after months of fun with FFH2 & TAM, and decided that I was going to defeat the Egyptian UHV with the default settings & starting location, advice be damned. (In particular, the Egyptian guide has only one way to win settling in place, and it explains how it was only possible on Viceroy). So I give it a shot, settle in place, and follow some of the advice without following it step for step. Basically I get Masonry after Mysticism, build Stonehenge, get Animal Husbandry, work on the Pyramids, whip out a Chariot, build the Polytheism wonder on the way to Aesthetics, finally build a city on the coast and start The Great Lighthouse, get the Great Library (almost panicked when I thought I might need 3 cities & libraries when I only had 2 cities), then at that point I get a golden age, and build whatever I want (mostly units) while teching hard for Music to get a Great Artist. I think I also got a great prophet (settled), a great engineer (used on Great Lighthouse, which was probably a mistake), and another great prophet way too late (also settled).

    Violà. :egypt: Monarchy victory while settling in place. Damn the guides, there are ways to do it. I even attached the replay (in case there are doubts).


    So I give India a try...

    :(

    There are very few right ways to do this one, and they all involve moving the starting location, don't they? :sad:

    For my first few playthroughs, I figure Judaism just isn't going to happen, and I aim for the rest. I'm pretty much right, as the AI gets Judaism around turn 30, and every time China beats me to Confucianism. Okay, let's see what else I can do. So now I start sending out my first warrior straight for China after popping the hut to the south, take his worker, and hide in that forested hill SW of Beijing. Kinda effective, but he still gets Confucianism around turn 50. Though, for some reason, Judaism is found around the same time. Okay, well... moving on. Let's try something else.

    First warrior is sent straight for China, ignoring any hut not on the way, and declares war while hiding in the forested hills to the SW again. China's worker was on the pigs, and turtles in Beijing. Beijing works on 3 archers straight, never lets their worker out, and even turtles their 1st settler... but still gets Confucianism, though around turn 65. Super. Again, Judaism is taken around turn 50. Hmmm...

    So I start to wonder if Judaism is tied to how soon I discover Babylon (I'm getting desperate at this point) or whether or not I'm researching it. So I do the same strategy, sending the first warrior to China to DoW & fortify, while researching Judaism first. Judaism is taken by the AI at turn 32. Damn it. I try a variation of this same strategy again, while trying to use the Oracle to snag Mathematics, to similar results. Finally, I try just sending my first warrior to the Jerusalem proxy. Their 3 archers destroy him, and I end up declaring war on Babylon & and Independent to even get there. I save up 3 warriors to send... and it's too late, as they get Judaism at turn 31. Damn it, again.

    Now I'm at a loss. If I gun Judaism while settling in place, I'm not going to get it. If I gun Confucianism, I'm not going to get it or Taoism. As far as I can tell, this is exactly what I feared RFC would be like, in that there are very few ways to get the UHV, and they all involve moving the starting location & some tricky maneuvering. Plus, it doesn't feel particularly historic to get Judaism...

    Was I just lucky in that I found another way to do the Egypt scenario on the default settings & starting location, and otherwise there are very specific strategies that need to be followed? That kind of depresses me for some reason. If there are other methods, I would love to hear them.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Chieftain

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    Some of the UHVs are indeed a micro hell, some are more freestylish. Personally, I almost never go for the UHV anyway.
     
  3. nody

    nody Chieftain

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    If possible I always go for 2 UHV's for the free Golden Age.

    For some (especially European civs) I don't have to change my strategy much to achieve 2 UHV's.
     
  4. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    Try playing as France or England - many, many ways to achieve this one. In my experience the 3000BC civs have very stringent requirements that need you to constantly micromanage, wheras the more modern civs (say Vikings onwards) let you roam with a bit more freedom :)
     
  5. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    The Unique Historical Victory is just one of the available victory conditions. You don't have to go for this option every time you play RFC. In fact, RFC plays just like a regular game of CivIV - you need to be prepared to alter your strategy to suit the game situation. Or; play with the game, not against it.

    If you miss one UHV requirement, then you know you were barking up the wrong tree all along. There is of course nothing wrong with going for the UHV initially in every game though, especially as it promotes "historical" play, but sooner or later you need to start playing the "alternative history". But as Nody said, 2 out of 3 isn't bad either, even if it won't win you the game.

    Personally I don't see much point in going for the UHV, but it is a nice feature nonetheless.
     
  6. LegioCorvus

    LegioCorvus Chieftain

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    I see the UHV as sort of the point of RFC. I mean, yes, you can play RFC as a version of Civ4 where civilizations spawn at their historical locations & time frame with some minor terrain changes, but it's really not different enough from Civ4 to warrant me playing it as a pure replacement for Civ4, in my opinion. Whereas I see the UHV as a puzzle to solve, and a much more unique and rewarding experience. Again, that's just me, and I can understand why some people would prefer it as a strait Civ4 replacement, but that isn't my draw. So, UHV it is.

    But, wow, is the Indian UHV insanely difficult.

    I've played as India going for that UHV (while settling in place) at least 10-12 more times since my last post, and it... just... won't... happen.

    I thought I finally figured it out. Send the first warrior to keep China bottled up, and build the Oracle to get the Mathematics. It works great, and keeps China from expanding until the get Construction and throw a catapult at my lowly warrior on the hill. (Image under spoiler).

    Spoiler :


    Every single time, though... and I mean every single time, China beat me to Confucianism. I even changed my build order to include Hunting before Writing so I could get the Oracle on turn 59 by working the elephant tile. Perfect, right? Nope, China will suddenly get Mathematics 3 turns earlier, or in this case (under spoiler), will somehow get Confucianism on the very turn I use the Oracle to get Mathematics. It was my turn! What the heck?

    Spoiler :


    It's really like I'm not supposed to be able to get Confucianism. I'm using fresh starts from the main menu here too, not reloads of a turn 0 save. Perfectly new RNG. I also noticed, once again, that every time I went for China & Confucianism instead of Judaism, no one got Judaism before turn 46, and often after turn 50. (Examples under spoiler).

    Spoiler :






    But there's got to be a way to do this without changing the starting position, right? So, I give it another half-dozen tries, and eventually I finally get Judaism before anyone else, amazingly.

    Spoiler :


    :woohoo:
    That's it. That's game. :lol: There's no possible way I could lose now, right? All I have to do is use the Oracle to get Theology, trade to backfill my techs, and gun straight for Divine Right. Wait, where did those barbarian elephants come from? :dubious: I mean, I had every part of the continent covered in warriors to spawnbust. Alright, well, get Iron Working, get some spearmen, and clear them out. Sets me back a few turns, but now there is nothing else in my way. Well, okay, now Persia declares war on me. Get enough units to not die, hold off their first attack, trade for Alphabet when the second wave comes, and trade to Persia to stop the war. Done. Games in the bag, right? Game's done. Divine Right is on the way, albeit very slowly. Nothing can stop me. Oh, look. Vedic Aryans. :mischief: Thanks for giving me a heart attack, but they're in the Himalayas. They can't reach me, and will probably harass some other poor civilization. Then... wait, WHAT? :mad: They're skipping past every other civilization to come straight at me? Okay... okay... calm down. I held off the Persians, I'm pretty sure I can hold off 6 pissed archers. Oh, man. I can't wait to finally beat this ga... Arabs spawn and instantly get Divine Right.



    Almost Edit: I noticed while editing this post that I absentmindedly used a great prophet to found a religious shrine instead of bulbing Diving Right. I went back, used the bulb, and was still 30 turns away from DR when Arabia spawned. Tried a second time, adjusted hard to libraries & scientists, bought off Persia sooner, and still ended up 20 turns away from DR with after bulbing when Arabia spawned.

    *sigh* It'll probably be another dozen tries before I finally give up and move on from RFC again.
     
  7. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    Fogbusting doesn't work in RFC, as the barbarians are scripted via python to appear in certain areas. Sometimes they'll even appear in tiles you own.
     
  8. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I never thought about the fog busting thing, but that is of course correct. I doubt they will spawn on owned tiles though... Not according to the actual code. So that would be a bug, then? :p
     
  9. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    Well, I'm pretty sure I saw a barb privateer pop out of thin air on a tile I owned in my recent Maya game. Or maybe the computer messed up the animation.
     
  10. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Aha, it could be that the code responsible for naval barbs doens't have the same checks as the one spawning land barbarians, then. Sounds like a bug to me! :p
     
  11. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Chieftain

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    Barb privateers are supposed to show up in the Atlantic spontaneously. (Very annoying when playing as the native Americans)
     
  12. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

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    Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see why you're so hung up on not moving the starting position? I guess if it bothers you to not have your capitol be Delhi (and I know it does bother some people), then that's a good reason. But in vanilla Civ4 (and 3...) it's often a good strategy to spend a turn or a few turns getting the right spot to settle your capitol.

    Anyway, the Indian UHV. I did it (on Viceroy though) with settling Delhi. You've got the harassment of China down, but are you popping all the huts? You should be able to get the ones in Europe. Remember that Arabia will ALWAYS found Islam on that same turn unless someone has already founded it. Judaism will ALWAYS get founded in Jerusalem unless someone captures it or founds before.

    Make sure to get those Buddhist/Hindu temples up and running priests to get as many GPs out as possible.
     
  13. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Yeah, but the spawn code (in Barbs.py) invokes the function outerSeaSpawn() and it isn't supposed to allow for spawn inside borders, any borders.
    This is why it would be a bug.
     
  14. NitroJay

    NitroJay Chieftain

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    Sorry, I just sort of skimmed this thread...

    But I'm with you. I have been doing the UHV's with trying to be as historically accurate as possible. I've beat Egypt, India, China, Babylon, Greece, and I'm currently working on Persia without changing the starting positions...

    For India, I did the tried and true method of rushing to Judism, then saving the game. I picked on of buddism or hinduism; but if someone got to one first, I just reloaded and switched the order. Oracle for Christianity then run priests for prophets. When I bulbed Devine Right, I had a few turns to go before Arabia spawned, and with the tech cost change, My next 3 or 4 techs after devine right overflowed to just 1 turn each. Then it was just a matter of growing my opo and defending against the elephants...

    It is a difficult UHV, but in the past 3-4 years since I've been playing RFC, I've beat it 3-4 times. Most recently on the final patch. So I know it can be done, all without moving Delhi.
     
  15. nody

    nody Chieftain

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    Don't you use your first prophets for shrines?
     
  16. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    I occasionally try moving the capital to a modern day equivalent from turn 1, especially if UHVs take the game to the modern age

    Turkey - don't settle Sogut, just capture Istanbul before all the cities flip -> Istanbul capital
    Japan - settle Tokyo first then Kyoto
    Vikings - settle Oslo first

    Some more challenging ideas:
    Arabia - settle Riyadh, maybe even try Cairo as capital? Some people consider Cairo to be the capital of the Arab world today :)
    Inca - settle Lima? Although Inca isn't supposed to carry forward as Peru I guess...
    Khmer - settle Phnom Penh, or maybe Hanoi? My history for that part of the world is rather lacking, I admit
    Vikings - settle Copenhagen? That'll be a challenge :D
    Mali - Bamako?
    Persia - Tehran? Again, I suppose Persia isn't supposed to carry forward as Iran, but for the sake of the challenge...
    Egypt - Cairo (this one is easier to suggest than Arabia's ;))
     
  17. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Since I don't care much about the UHVs (or winning for that matter), I've regularly been building Kiev first! :eek: Because the Vladimir/Suzdal area (where Moscovy later emerged) wasn't even settled at AD 860... :rolleyes: (Well, not by the Slavs, anyway.)

    But I guess I've solved this issue once-and-for-all by making a historical scenario where the Russians start at Novgorod (without any Settlers) and flip ancient Kiev as the capital. :D The earliest dynamic name for Russia is "Kievan Rus", by the way...
     
  18. LegioCorvus

    LegioCorvus Chieftain

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    In normal Civ4 (well... BAT or BUG -mod Civ4) I'll move my capital whenever I feel I'll get a better starting location. For some reason I just feel like the UHV should be attainable from the starting position, at least at the Monarch difficulty. It lends more credence, at least for me, to the idea of achieving a historical victory. That may or may not be the intention of Rhye. If not, that's fine. It's his prerogative as a modder to make the game he wants.

    I think another part of it is that I enjoy both puzzles and finding new ways to do things. When I first tried RFC, it annoyed me that there seemed to be set ways to beat the UHVs, instead of general tips & strategies. So, in addition to making the UHV more historic (from a certain point of view), I want to see if I can find ways other than those recommended in the guides.

    I may have found a way, though. I am popping all the huts, but I reset whenever I pop a technology. I know that seems masochistic, but I want to make sure whatever strategy I try doesn't rely on too much luck, and getting Judaism before anyone else while settling in place is already luck based. Actually, my latest strategy also relies on getting the Oracle before the Greeks, which means it's already doubly luck based.

    My new strategy is partly relying on temples & priests to get a GP, but it looks like it'd have to be used on Divine Right and not Theology, as getting the Oracle before the Greeks while settling in place is hard. It's a very fine build, and a single misstep can ruin it, but I think I got it. Oh, and the China harass isn't really necessary for it. Hopefully my next post is a victory post.

    Thanks, man. That's exactly what I went into this thread hoping to hear. :goodjob:

    Sounds like the strategy you use is pretty close to the one I'm currently trying. Oracle for Divine Right just seems unreachable, so I'm switching the order around. I just need to find the right tech order after getting Meditation, which is usually the last religion I grab. I might have to try saving after getting Judaism, though. It's just such a crap shoot otherwise.
     
  19. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Early UHVs are super micro, but later ones especially the ones after 600CE with the 3000BCE unlocked start
     
  20. NitroJay

    NitroJay Chieftain

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    Yeah, India can be tough...

    About 20% of the time, Judaism will be autofounded before you get to monotheism. Try to maximize your odds with a Delhi start by concentrating your worked plots on science. (Manually selecting the best money slots works best, clicking the "emphisize science" button isn't always best.) IF Judaisim is founded elsewhere, just reload.

    Once you have judaism. Save. You'll have to decide which other religion to go after, hinduism or buddism... Every once in a while (Maybe 1 in 7) it will be impossible to get both. Again, you'l have to reload. A few times, I popped Buddism from a goodie hut. But generally, you need to go for buddism first, since Greece goes for it pretty quick. Again, keep your science going full on.

    It's easier to reach the UHV with another city site as your capital, i.e. Lahore, but it's not impossible with Delhi. :)

    Time the Oracle to finish when you have the required techs for Theology... I remember a bunch of games where I had to slow down by building something else for a few turns... I think WRITING is required... I can't remember exactly though.

    Build tons of temples and run as many priests as you can... Meanwhile, make sure you stay in contact with the european civs. You can get Iron working from them if you do your trades right. You'll need the iron 3 squares south of Delhi to defend against the barbs.

    When you get the GPs, DO NOT BUILD SHRINES. Bulb for Devine Right. I was actually researching devine right and I think it took 3 or 4 GP's to get it before Arabia spawns. But you'll have a ton of overflow... You'll get another 3 or 4 techs at 1 turn each after Devine Right. Make sure one of them is Calendar.

    Once you have the 5 Religions, SAVE. Beleive it or not, the #1 in pop goal can be kind of tricky. Japan and China are typically your biggest rivals, but I've seen a super Persia and Super Greece before as well. Trade away all of your calendar resources for health. You won't need the happiness boosts since you'll have a ton of temples... I'd have to go back and check, but I think I won with 4 or 5 cities with populations of 10 or so in Delhi and 4-8 everywhere else.

    Finally, the entire game, you'll have to kiss persia's ass. Give them anything they ask for short of a city and make sure you keep the same religion as them. If China declares war, don't sweat it. You'll never see an offensive Chinese unit.

    I've beat the Indian UHV probably 3 or 4 times, and most recently with the final version. So I know it's possible... I wrote a guide a while back, I think it's on the strategy website... Some of the concepts still apply to the final version if you need more detail... :) Good luck!
     

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