Am I the only sane one here (Israel)

[Takhisis]

Well, Ayn, you finally accept that the palestinians have been wronged. You've made some progress today.

 

[Zardnaar]

Kara, are you jesting or are you doing a serious post?

He is actually right. A modern equivilent would be the illegal immigrants inthe USA stared demanding parts of Cailfornia or Texas maybe justifying it because they were once Mexican. They use terroist means and demand independence while an outside power (imahgine the USA being occupied by the EU or UN) gives it to them. Basically what happened to the Arabs.

Ergo my first post the creation of Israel was stupid, morinic and wrong but its there now. No point griping over who done what in the 20's-40's. It exists and has nukes.

 

[Takhisis]

I agree with his post, but as he routinely goes off into parodying one political posture or another I sometimes don't know whether to take him seriously or not.

Ergo my first post the creation of Israel was stupid, morinic and wrong but its there now. No point griping over who done what in the 20's-40's. It exists and has nukes.

Then take the nukes off 'em. Oh, wait, legally, they don't even have nukes.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree with his post, but as he routinely goes off into parodying one political posture or another I sometimes don't know whether to take him seriously or not.

Then take the nukes off 'em. Oh, wait, legally, they don't even have nukes.

And how are you going to take the nukes off them and disarm the IDF? Genius idea.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Actually the Haganah was never a terrorist organization. The most terroristic thing it has done was in the night of the trains. The other groups which were terroristic were widely condemned among the Zionist community.

And I'm not 100% sure but AFAIK the Arabs fired the first shot because the Jews kept immigrating and the Arabs realized the "Jews want their own state" thing might come to be a reality one day.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I support a one state solution where anyone can immigrate (except those known to be carrying dangerous diseases or banished for criminal/terrorist activities), citizenship is never given automatically (I'd probably strip everyone of citizenship first to ensure an equal footing), anyone is free to take the citizenship test required to establish that informed consent can be given when signing the citizenship contract, no one is ever forced to try for citizenship, only citizens can be drafted into the military, it is illegal for the government to in any way acknowledge political parties, and all elections use range voting.

 

[Takhisis]

And how are you going to take the nukes off them and disarm the IDF? Genius idea.

Well, if Iran, North Korea, etc. can be isolated and sanctioned, why not Israel? Israel, unlike the others, depends on western help for its existence.

 

[warpus]

Why is it dumb? Are my people not entitled to a country of our own? Especially after 6 million of them were killed?

I could never understand the "6 million of us were killed, give us a country" argument.

It's an appeal to emotion and a logical fallacy.

(Disclaimer: I support Israel's right to exist)

 

[BurnEmDown]

It's not only the holocaust. Zionism existed since the 1880's, and Jews have always immigrated to Palestine since then to build their national home and eventually have their own state. After WWI the Balfour declaration assured the Zionists that the Jews will have their own state one day in Palestine.

The holocaust was a key event in the whole thing however, it sort of "rushed" the decision, "woke the world up", if you will, and showed how urgent is the need for a Jewish state.

 

[Squonk]

It's not only the holocaust. Zionism existed since the 1880's, and Jews have always immigrated to Palestine since then to build their national home and eventually have their own state. After WWI the Balfour declaration assured the Zionists that the Jews will have their own state one day in Palestine.

The holocaust was a key event in the whole thing however, it sort of "rushed" the decision, "woke the world up", if you will, and showed how urgent is the need for a Jewish state.

The Balfour declaration didn't give any promesses of a STATE to zionist Jews, only of national home or something like this.

 

[Tee Kay]

It's not only the holocaust. Zionism existed since the 1880's, and Jews have always immigrated to Palestine since then to build their national home and eventually have their own state. After WWI the Balfour declaration assured the Zionists that the Jews will have their own state one day in Palestine.

The holocaust was a key event in the whole thing however, it sort of "rushed" the decision, "woke the world up", if you will, and showed how urgent is the need for a Jewish state.

And this is what happens when you move into someone else's house without their permission.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well the Arabs sold lands to the Zionists, it's not like they forced them out.

 

[Tee Kay]

Well the Arabs sold lands to the Zionists, it's not like they forced them out.

Yeah, the landowners (not always Palestinian, by the way) sold like 5% of the land to Zionists before WWII. Now how much did Israel ended up with?

 

[tycoonist]

One thing i never understood was why Zionists felt that the Jewish people were entitled to any land whatsoever, and especially, why they were entitled to land in Palestine. There are plenty of contries with no official religion, and there a plenty of (perfectly happy) religions without a country dedicated to them. And, i know, the Jews suffered under Nazi oppression and all, but why does that give them any kind of right to settle in a land that was not even partly related to Germany, or Nazism. They were wronged by the Nazis, and then the Zionists, in turn wronged the Palestinians.

 

[Ajidica]

A bit off topic, but how accurate/balenced is Leon Uris's book Exodus with regards to the establishment of Israel? Most of my knowledge about Israels founding comes from that book.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Yeah, the landowners (not always Palestinian, by the way) sold like 5% of the land to Zionists before WWII. Now how much did Israel ended up with?

Perhaps the rest of the land was just empty and had no owners? You are forgetting that the Zionists dried many, many swamps and most of the land they received originally wasn't habitable, but they worked it and made it fertile.

Also, I don't know exactly but what I do know is that about 80% of the lands Israel got was, and still is, just a big desert, the Negev.

Here's a map showing Jewish presence in Palestine from 20-48:

And here's a map showing the partition plan:

Considering all the are south of Beersheba is useless desert, that wasn't inhibited by anyone, I'd say it was a reasonable partition. I wouldn't mind giving it all to the Arabs back then, but I guess the UN thought otherwise (so it wouldn't be a 15%-85% partition of the land maybe?).

And I say this once again: Israel didn't get Palestine because of the holocaust, they Zionists didn't just move there in '45 and declared independence 3 years afterwards, they were there from 1880 and immigration never stopped since then.
You can see here: http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En Demographics Factsheet v.1.pdf
That by 1942 The Jews were almost 500,000 in number in Palestine, with the Arabs almost 1,000,000 in number.
Israel was declared in Palestine because this is were most Zionists were, where they wanted to form their country, and where they've built their national home for several decades.

 

[Takhisis]

...and which has been the Palestinian national home for several decades centuries.

 

[Zardnaar]

Eve the oiginal biblical Jews took the land off the Philistines, so they have never been the original inhabitants as such.

 

[otago]

Actually the Haganah was never a terrorist organization. The most terroristic thing it has done was in the night of the trains. The other groups which were terroristic were widely condemned among the Zionist community.

And I'm not 100% sure but AFAIK the Arabs fired the first shot because the Jews kept immigrating and the Arabs realized the "Jews want their own state" thing might come to be a reality one day.

By the standards the Israelis use they were terrorists, for example fighting in civilian clothes.
They were idiotic enough to have a crack at what they believed to be poor native troops.
Too bad for them it was 28th Bat support company, having twenty odd MG 34/42s along with 15 German mortars firing at one tends to make a person believe they have bitten off a bit much.
Lucky for them the Bat. boss turned up as they had badly wounded the Company boss.
By the rules of war they could have been lined up and shot after they quickly surrendered.

 

[Princeps]

Eve the oiginal biblical Jews took the land off the Philistines, so they have never been the original inhabitants as such.

This never happened in reality. Israeli archeology has disproven most of the bronze age exodus myths.