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America, Denmark, India. Who has the worst UA?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by AmericanDestiny, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. MattZed

    MattZed Warlord

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    Denmark's UA is of the "looks bad on paper, looks better in practice" variety. Catapults can disembark, set-up, and fire IN THE SAME TURN. Free pillaging can be quite nice, although perhaps a little situational. India has a similar situation, but that happiness pays off in the long run.
     
  2. tide15

    tide15 Warlord

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    That's the point. America is best going wide. Once you start expanding it's a steamroller. ;)
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    America UA allows you to use the purchase land strategy more effective, which in turn is a pretty effective strategy:cool:
     
  4. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    This is totally right. Once Denmark gets dynamite and steam they're a powerhouse. I do wish their UA were better in the medieval to actually represent "viking fury" but that embarkation bonus gets really powerful at steam. Pair 5 or 6 artillery, 3 or 4 of your veteran infantry with marine and bonus in hills and a few frigates and Denmark is pretty unstoppable in an area that's usually pretty tough in domination games, amphibious invasions. The free pillaging gets really nice on higher difficulties where there is no shortage of tiles to pillage since higher level AIs start with workers.

    India's UA takes some work and a little bit of luck with mercantile CSs or a good mix of luxuries to not kill your start but it gets really strong around the late medieval. If you play peacefully it's just some extra GAs but it's really good for late game domination. Go Order and get iron curtain asap for the stronger ITRs and free courthouses then go on a rampage annexing everything. Happiness is never a problem.

    I think of the three America's is the weakest. The extra sight is only useful early on and even then it can be luck based. Later on I'll just use a mounted unit as a spotter for my armies as another civ so America's sight bonus just saves you one extra unit. The tile buying is completely and utterly outclassed by the Shoshone.
     
  5. nimzo28

    nimzo28 Chieftain

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    I finished more than 100 games at Immortal level, 8 with India, and IMO they have one of the best UA. With BNW and Caravan, they are stronger than ever. Just focus in Granary, Worker, Shrine, Caravan (and sometime Circus) with the Tradition's tree. Then you are ok to develop your Civ with one or two more cities. Choose Goddess of the Hunt or Fertility Rites as a Pantheon (for food), or Goddess of Love or Sacred Waters as a Pantheon for happiness, and then Feed the World or Swords into Plowshares as a Foller Belief for more food, and you are in business.

    UA of India is late one (Medieval/Renaissance and +), like Sweden, France, Brazil, England, Venice, Austria... At the beginning, you have to play differently than other Civ, but not so differently than Ethiopia or Venice.

    But when some of your cities are 20 pop or more, and/or all your cities are 6pop or more, UA of India give to you a huge advantage. Domination is so easy with them.

    Try to build your second / third cities in the coast. Cargo Ship gives more food than Caravan.
     
  6. Chippeth

    Chippeth Chieftain

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    I think America and India are fine, maybe America needs a slightly smaller domination focus but they fit the late-industrial rush fine, upgraded minutemen are great for quickly getting to that enemy capital your B17s have brought crumbling down.

    India is fine too. Nuechwanstein Mughal Forts are a very nice treat for the wide-ish empire India should be played at.

    And whilst I do like the Norwegian Ski Infantry, Denmark needs some sort of buff. I like the idea of a UU replacing the Galleass that can cross ocean tiles, which would go well with the Berserkers for a nice Medieval start to domination. Also allows you to found the World Congress early and all the nice bonuses that come with meeting everyone first.
     
  7. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I'm a bit torn on this question. The sight bonus with America is definitely something that I would rate of very little value - of course it does benefit you, but the times where it will get you something you wouldn't have gotten without it are very few in my experience. The tile purchasing is decent, however - I do have a feeling that people tend to underestimate this a bit because everybody play Tradition which makes your borders expand very wide, but when I play Liberty, I frequently find my border expansion WAY too slow, and if I have a really wide empire, the ability to buy tiles cheaply is definitely useful. Not saying that's it's overall a strong UA, though, but given that Minutemen are now really awesome, I would say America as a civ is not too bad. Wouldn't mind a small tweak to their UA to make them a bit more expansion prone, however.

    India ... haven't played with these for ages. I was always a bit curious about the dislike for this civ - sure, the happiness penalty is a hinder, but that's the point, and it WILL benefit you in the long run, when cities grow large. This is intended to be a TALL civ. People tend to scuff at the Mughal Fort, because I'm apparently I'm the only one who bothers to build castles, but apart from fuelling my passion for Neuschwanstein, I tend to like the comfort of strong cities which lets me retain a slim military, and the extra culture and later tourism from a building that's otherwise free isn't too shabby. Didn't it use to have a gold bonus also? Maybe this or some sort of great work slot could be added to make it a bit more attractive.

    About Denmark, I do think it's a civ that's hard to play. It's my impression not too many players excell at naval conquest, certainly I don't myself, but I can see why the UA can be really beneficial under these circumstances. One thing that's certain is that those embarked Berserkers have caused me trouble more than once. I do agree with others, however, that the Ski Infantry is a bit of a mismatch, and possibly some sort of naval unit with the ability to cross oceans (but not end on them) before Astronomy, possibly sharing this ability with any embarged unit starting on the same tile as the ship, would be a more likely match. This would play well with their UA and give them some interesting options for early game conquest.

    So on the bottom line, I can't really point to any one of them being definitely worst, but I do think all of them could benefit from some minor tweaks.
     
  8. Learner

    Learner Chieftain

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    In my opinion, America has the worst UA. Compared to a civ like Shoshone makes it look horribly outclassed. American can buy tiles cheap, while Shoshone starts with extra territory. America can scout quickly, but Shoshone starts with pathfinder instead of warrior and can also scout lands relatively quickly. They will also benefit more from scouting, since they can choose the results of the ruins.

    Spain's UA is a dice roll, and might be completely useless or very handy. I think it's worth a mention in the list.
     
  9. AmericanDestiny

    AmericanDestiny Chieftain

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    I've thought a lot about some potential changes. This is my proposal:

    Original Manifest Destiny
    -All land military units have +1 sight. 50% discount when purchasing tiles.

    New Manifest Destiny

    -All land military units have +1 sight. 50% discount when purchasing tiles.
    -Replace B-17 with new Unique Settler - Cowboy (or Pioneer). Each Cowboy can found two cities before expiring.
    -This creates a strong incentive to truly go wide while also still encouraging players to buy tiles.

    Original Viking Fury
    -Embarked units have +1 Movement and pay just 1 movement point to move from sea to land. Melee units pay no movement point cost to pillage.

    New Viking Fury
    -Embarked units have +1 Movement and pay no movement point to move from sea to land and land to sea. Melee units pay no movement point cost to pillage.
    - It may seem like a minor change but this makes raiding parties potentially devastating for your enemy, as well as making exploration easier, especially when exploring small islands. In one turn you can land, attack, embark, and move two tiles out of range of enemy cities or barbarian units.
    -I kept the UU's the same, because having both units in the same upgrade path is a huge advantage already.

    Original Population Growth
    -Unhappiness from number of Cities doubled, Unhappiness from number of Citizens halved.

    New Population Growth
    -Unhappiness from number of Citizens halved.
    -Nothing creative here. I only included India in the OP because it is generally regarded to be the worst civ.
     
  10. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Not fond of this as it doesn't make much sense. They move a tile when they disembark, why would they not pay 1 movement point to do so?
     
  11. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Someone suggested in another thread that the Denmark UA could be modified to provide deep water embarkation at Compass. This would be a great change I think, one of the things that really limits the use of the UA is the fact that shallow water is so difficult to navigate without bumping into the territory boundaries you're trying to sneak around.
     
  12. direblade99

    direblade99 Warlord

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    America is fine as it is. It's a fairly powerful warmongering civ that can explore the map like nobodies business, can save a TON of money early on on tile purchases and then use the saved gold to support an army, which is going to be far more logistically powerful than a normal one thanks to the extra sight. They also have a very VERY powerful mid game UU, and a decent late game one.

    It seems to me that people don't like it because it's either "boring", or because they feel it doesn't represent America well. Now I don't know what they teach in American schools about the history of your nation, but in Australia we're taught that basically you were formed from fighting lots of things and killing them good, and also getting cheap ass land from the french, both of which make sense with how America is represented in game. You had one of the best periods of your history after world war two, represented by the bomber you have and the surely upgraded units which give golden ages.
     
  13. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    A UA where a civ gets more from pillaging, like more gold or even culture or something (I'm just tossing ideas out there) might work for Denmark. Perhaps in addition to their current UA. It's something that's never been done before to the best of my knowledge.

    As for India, someone mentioned that maybe India's UA should be changed entirely, perhaps to one focused on religion (since it's India after all). However, the mechanic of having less unhappiness from population is a nice unique one, so I wouldn't want to see it disappear from the game. Someone suggested that the double :c5angry: from cities should be removed entirely, leaving only the half :c5angry: from population. Wouldn't that be OP though?

    At the same time, I'm just irrationally uncomfortable with the "remove double :c5angry: from cities, but lessen the :c5angry: reduction from population" idea. Because half is a good fraction. :lol:
     
  14. KmDubya

    KmDubya King

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    An idea for a new American UA - "World's Policeman" or "Making the World Safe for Democracy" - when a city is captured America gets a liberation bonus with all of the civs even when they choose to keep the city for themselves :)

    On a more serious note I think they are all ok UAs. India excels at going wide with huge cities, Denmark excels at water invasions with siege units landing and firing on the same turn, and America has a solid, always helps, increased sight and faster borders. Without OP tradition border expansion is painfully slow.
     
  15. GKShaman

    GKShaman Prince

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    Played over 100 immortal and some diety India games.
    New to diety so no victories on that but plenty on immortal.

    India can expand really easily after renaissance. The UA isnt horrible.

    The problem lies in the fact that if u were to choose a nation that has the hardest time founding a religion - that would be india. If u play as india u have to piety and get stonehenge and hope u make it. India is the birth place of three religions. So lets give a shrine replacement:

    Mandir UB: +1 faith for every cattle, sheep, horse. +1 faith overall.

    Also the Mughal Fort and War Elephant are great units and buildings. Maybe give the Mughal Fort a Great Art slot - but that might be OP.
     
  16. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Arguably, the flaw of your argument is that you don't "save a ton of money" courtesy of the land purchase discount if you don't purchase any land - and it's my impression that most players very rarely use the ability to purchase land tiles. If this was coupled with the ability to purchase tiles in 4th and possibly even 5th ring, I could see much more of a benefit from it.

    And about the logistics, once you've had a scout out uncovering the land, the benefit of that scouting bonus is going to fairly limited.
     
  17. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Well, this is partly owing to the current status of tradition as the default starter tree for most players, but even aside from that your point holds. Playing as America doesn't save you any money, instead it lets you buy some tiles at all whereas otherwise you wouldn't have found the benefit worth the price.

    To argue as the previous poster did that a 50% discount saves the player a "ton" of money, one would first have to assume that the player also spent literally the same "ton" on what tiles they did purchase, because you can't save 50% without spending the equal amount that remains. How, then, can this hypothetical America player who has spent a "ton" of money on tiles turn around and fund a single archer, let alone an army...
     
  18. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I would say all three of them are the worst in three various ways :p

    Denmark ability is insanely situational (useful only while performing domination naval assaults - using not ships but land units! - on water - heavy maps...) - take Pangaea, land maps, hell even continents, and their ability is immediately useless. Even if Denmark is on the archipelago and even if it is going for domination, its UA helps fighting but it doesn't help with occupied happiness, economy, diplomacy - and in the same time Denmark naval invasions are not as powerful as Keshiks/Impis/Battering Rams.

    India penalizes early growth, which is absolutely terrifying. Yeah, later it can allow on giant happiness, but still... The only ability which has a downside. To be honest, even if India had only -50% to citizen unhappiness and no penalty, its UA still wouldn't be spectacular.
    Also, I find something offensive in Population Growth as the main power of Indian nation... "Indian unique strenght - these people can breed like rabbits and still stay happy in their overpopulated cities!"

    American ability is nice in the early period of game, and in the wars/exploration (although still not very strong...) But for me it is the worst in other way - it is BORING AS HELL. All units have +1 to sight and tiles are bought cheaper, compare that booooring thing to Mayan UA, Korean UA, Spanish UA, hell compare that even to not very strong but still far more interesting ones - like Polynesian UA, Indonesian UA, Byzantine UA... By far the most boring ability. Also, America is probably the most "well known" and "familiar" civ in the West, so for me playing this nation has complete lack of, uhm, some kind of exotic feeling. IMHO this is by far the most boring civ in that game.
     
  19. isau

    isau Deity

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    I don't consider any of them terrible. Not great, but not terrible.

    I agree that Denmark would be much better if the extra movement happened on both disembarking and on embarking. The Ski Infantry, while not part of the UA, does stand out as particularly disappointing.

    American's UA is IMO much better than it looks on paper. Whats its not great for is turtiling. Scouting is just the tip of what its useful for. It's mainly good for being able to see the whole battle field. It also makes it much easier to prevent the spawning of barbarians (they cant spawn within Line of Sight). I also purchase tiles pretty regularly. Especially in the early game the American UA could be worth hundreds of gold if you need to place a city and still grab a great spot. You can also use this to block the advancement of other civ's settles by quickly building impassable barriers.

    India is hard to rate. The biggest benefit of India is the fact that it can basically go 'Ideological pressure? LOL what's that?"
     
  20. Aldhissla

    Aldhissla Chieftain

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    The military value of additional sight is simply immeasurable once artillery and airplanes become a thing. America's UA is really really good, especially since Minutemen ignore terrain cost.
     

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