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America SG

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Mizzenmast, May 14, 2022.

  1. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    This thread is for a new succession game, to be played as America on an Oval map with all Standard settings. So far the roster is @Tiberiu and myself, but I would like to add 1-3 more players, if anyone is interested. The name of the game (for us humans) is Domination. We'll play in rounds of 10 turns.

    I like America... The vision bonus and tile discount are great for smoothing out the early game, comparable to Shoshone, but then they have the very late but powerful UU which gives you something to look forward to all game. The bomber actually pairs nicely with the other UU given that one gets a city bonus and the other gets a unit-killing bonus that it retains through upgrades.

    Here's our start:
    America start.jpg

    It looks pretty average. I'll wait to see who wants to join and hear others' thoughts. For my part, given that this is a Pangaea-style map, I think that despite the two Fish, I prefer to move our Settler to the Gold hill and tech Mining first, hoping to steal AI workers to quickly chop the Forests, and sell the Gold asap. The Fish would take a while to get online, and this way we can use our TR slots for early Caravan science to fix the early game, and save science on Optics. Not sure about policies until more is revealed, but in my experience Oval maps are tight on space, so we will probably only have 2-3 good spots to settle and the AIs will want our territory quickly.

    Oh, and we will be using our discretion this game to not overly abuse the AI. Our working rules will be:

    - No white peace bug. If the AI are demanding something for peace we must pay it or stay at war.
    - No borrowing huge sums of gold from an AI then warring them, or purchasing their unique luxes / bribing them expensively then doing the same. We can still borrow gold generally, including from friends we think may backstab and war us on their own. And we can still war an AI we have debt with, if we will actually fight them or there is another good reason besides profit (e.g., to prevent CS steals). There will be gray areas, so let's just refrain from actively pulling fast ones on the AI.
    - Can only steal Workers from AIs. On Oval is it very easy, there are bound to be 2-3 AIs 10 tiles away from our start in different cardinal directions, and it is better to weaken them by Worker-stealing than bothering a CS anyway.
    -We sell and buy Strategics at the standard 2r:3gpt ratio whenever possible (aka 1r : 45 gold).
     

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  2. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    Hi. I like America, this should be a fun game.

    A few of my thoughts:

    Settling: I agree with the Gold (the one from the North, right?) so that there remains room for a city to settle those 2 fish later. Or maybe the Warrior reveals something else.
    Research: Even if settling on the Gold I'd still go either Pottery for Shrine/Granary or Archery for Temple of Artemis which should be doable with 3 forests. However going Mining and then directly Masonry and trying to set up building Pyramids is also something I would like, however it implies a bit of risk. Maybe only if we get good Ruins like Population or whatever.
     
  3. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    This sounds fun, I'd like to join. :)

    Settling on the coast seems like the best option to me unless the warrior reveals something good. I'd probably settle where the warrior is, grow to pop 3 and build settlers while working the three visible hills.
     
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  4. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    Ok, with 3 players I will commence the game, but others can certainly still join. (The turn order will be our posting order.)

    I explored a little, ended up settling this riverine Hill spot 3 tiles from Vatican City. It misses a Stoneworks, but has 9 fresh farm tiles, and leaves room for coastal expands to both the North and South. America's trait shined immediately by letting us buy out Vatican's Sugar on t7 with the cash from 2 CS meetings.

    America 10.jpg

    We got good ruins as well: Culture and Mining tech. Took Tradition opener since we are bordering a CS. We can stick to that tree, or switch to Liberty/Honor. I will let @Tiberiu decide.

    Teched for Pottery. With the Faith headstart from Vatican, we should certainly go for a fast Shrine. Looks like the Gold/Silver pantheon would be good here. Even if we miss founding a religion, the early culture will be nice, esp. for pushing borders.

    We are actually very isolated by water for an Oval start... I believe we are in the SE corner of the map. We might meet the AIs too late to get an easy Worker steal, but there is a lot to like about this start otherwise.
     

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  5. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    I have played 10 turns but I am afraid I haven't accomplished much, but:

    - we stole a worker from Carthage who is our neighbour... I Dowed around tunr 16 or so so maybe before making peace we can steal another worker. However I couldn't bring the worker home, it is still isolated. However if Carthage will demand something from us for peace, this might be tricky... Ideally if Dido will accept peace, we can send a caravan soon.

    - we met La Venta for another +4 faith. 2 pantheons were taken so we still don't have one, but I build our shrine as fast as possible to maybe get a good pantheon.
    - discovered Animal Husbandry and we have horses in the capital and another tile nearby.
    - Netherlands met us, and I think this is a good thing, maybe we get cheaper luxes during the game. However honestly I don't know where his unit who met us came from.
    - I put pledges to protect on the CSs... not sure it's the best but I did it.

    I continued with Liberty opener as I feel we profit from the small extra culture boost and we also need workers badly...

    Hopefully @vadalaz can have more fortunes in his turns and do something better than I did with those units.

    turn20.jpg
     

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  6. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    Nice steal. Maybe we should send 1 Caravan to Carthage, build a small Chariot army, and war her once the trade route ends?
     
  7. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T20: Started Archery, hoping that Sidon and Vatican target the camp on our peninsula.
    T21: Dido has a spearman escorting a settler in our direction...
    T22: Met Egypt. Spotted a ruin, will wait an extra turn before taking it, as we're 2 faith away from our pantheon. Carthagian Settler is actually moving west, away from us.
    T23: Started Caravan in Washington.
    T24: Pantheon - take Religious Idols. Take the ruin now, it's population. Met Buenos Aires, pledge to protect. Bought Oasis tile.
    T25: Stole another worker and made peace with Dido.
    T26: New social policy, take Republic.
    T27: Archery -> Masonry.
    T28: Met Antananarivo.
    T29-30: -

    20220515152504_1.jpg

    A few afterthoughts:

    Dido didn't demand anything for peace, but only because we didn't even have anything to give her. So that was a bit sketchy, but technically within the rules. I've been saving up cash to buy that forest Gold and work it instead of the Sugar.

    I went Masonry, but perhaps Sailing was better for a quick double caravan before Collective Rule?

    I think an Archer is a good idea for that camp up north. Attacking Dido through the 2-tile chokepoint and rough terrain will be painful. We also need to consider her Quinquereme spam when we're choosing our expo spots, because those ships can deal a lot of damage to weak cities, especially if Dido also builds SoZ.
     

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  8. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    America40.jpg

    The local CS’s have put out the expected camp quest, which we will take care of with an Archer. Additionally one of our Scouts cleared an empty camp for a Faith CS (La Venta) last turn, and there is currently a Handaxe with their Worker in the fog next to Egypt (you can radar). Maybe Egypt with kill it with a city attack in a couple turns and we can liberate the Worker too. Also this CS has a Prophet quest which we will likely fulfill. And there are some Natural wonder quests now (including for Vatican). If we ally both the Faith CS, we can push for a Medieval tech to double the bonus soon.

    Collective rule settler just spawned, not sure whether N or S is better to settle first, N has more luxuries but South has 2 gold tiles compared to the 1 Silver.

    We met more civs, including Mongols who are about to capture their 2nd CS. But our Scout is trapped in his borders. I think we should keep him though, he can park himself on the pillaged road and prevent their city connection.

    Bought a jungle tile in the capital (misclick). Went for Granary after Archer and researched Wheel so we can get a Water Mill (and have access to Chariot, so maybe the military CS will give us one - let's hold on to 1 Horse for that case). The food buildings will be important since we are locking the Gold mines. You can build another Settler now or wait a bit. Maybe we could send a Settler asap to the continent interior, before Dido’s borders close. We can use a city there as a trading hub with other civs, build a sub-army there, etc. It also looks like there could be good lands to our West as well, across the bay.
     

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  9. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    edit: turn 40 - I sent the first settler to the nearby Gold to start generating more faith quickly and I also sold the first copy of Gold to Carthage... Also this city will help with stealing more tiles around Vatican. I build a Shrine first instead of Monument, though, to secure a Religion.

    Turn 42 - the 6th pantheon has gone so our chances of having a religion diminish. I am trying to get a few more settlers out and maybe with their shrines and the CS faith we can catch the 5th religion in time at the very least.
    Mongolia captures Mbanza Kongo. It seems Mongolia is having a good game. Mongolia has also signed a DOF with an Unmet civ.

    Turn 45. Our scout from Mongolia's lands is doing nothing so I kinda felt I have to DOW to continue exploration... A small war shouldn't attract too much hate our way I think. There are still 2 major civs to find for some tech discounts and more CS...

    Turn 46. We had met Quebec and they have a Barb quest now. We also meet Genoa and they also have a Barb quest with a Worker inside...

    Turn 47. Honestly I don't know if you guys will agree but I decide to DOW Netherlands and pillage their carravan. With this 100 gold we can now instantly buy another worker. We need workers and if we are going for Domination we will end up hated upon anyway. I also saw another caravan so maybe we can hunt that one down too. Maybe Vadalaz wants to buy the worker in the Silver city so I am not buying it just yet.

    48. We find King Solomon mines and fulfil some CS with it. Vatican will be our Ally so maybe we will catch a Religion now without much trouble.
    I had a moment of stupidity and I cleared the Barb camp for Genoa, capturing their Worker and keeping it instead of liberating it (sorry :D)... It is not a very big deal. Could have helped with triggering our Natural Golden Age, though... we can use the worker to scout more in the area, at least... or find another injured barb and use it to re-liberate it.

    50. Another settler is out and I suggest sending it to either the Dyes or prepare to send it near the other Gold but for the Gold it has to be escorted because of a Barb camp there.
    We have 406 gold so we can either buy a Unit, a Worker, or get 100 more and give 500 to La Venta. I'd buy a Worker in the Silver city but @vadalaz can decide what's best.

    note - I saw a caravan in Rotterdam a few turns ago but I can't say where it went from there.

    upload_2022-5-16_15-17-47.png
     

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  10. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    Maybe Vadalaz has started but if not, could I suggest we found the Silver city on the Grassland tile on the River? It will be safe form Quinquiremes and claim good tiles from Vatican

    Edit: We could also found it on the other Grassland (coastal) and it will re-claim the Marble for Stoneworks which can get an extra production from Washington's stone too. But less safe.
     
  11. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Maybe you already know this, but something I discovered only recently was that you can hover your cursor over any tile, and if there's a caravan on it, the game will tell you above the next turn button:

    20220516155400_1.jpg

    T50: Start Chariot in the capital to deal with the camp to our south and maybe try for Buenos and Riga's quest next. Purchase a Worker in the capital.
    T51: Barb horseman from the southern camp moves into our lands. Worker finds GBR south of Sparta. Spotted Mongolian caravan. Start Sailing.
    T52: Sidon gifts us a Chariot, pretty good timing. Plunder Mongolian caravan. Start Worker in New York.
    T53: Founded two new cities.
    T54: Carthage asks us not to settle next to her, I promise not to. Northern scout gets slammed by barb Horseman, he'll die next turn unfortunately. Doesn't look like there was much left for him to explore up there though.
    T55: Spotted a bunch of Carthagian units, so bribed Dido to attack Egypt for 9gpt.
    T56: Sailing done. I notice that none of the AIs we've met have gone Tradition, so maybe we can try to build HG? Start Mathematics. Dido has a lot of units.
    T57: Met Theodora. She went Tradition. :rolleyes: Decide against HG and switch to Optics.
    T58: Dido isn't really moving any of her units anywhere...
    T59: Plundered Dutch caravan, spotted another one. Spotted settleable Crabs to our south. New policy, take Liberty worker.
    T60:

    20220516170555_1.jpg

    Cities are risky, but I think we should be able to bribe our way through it. Dido -> Egypt was cheap, I checked Dido -> Netherlands a couple of turns ago and it was 1 lux + embassy and 3 gpt. It's a shame the Dyes city misses a fish, but with the hand-axe in the way I couldn't have explored there earlier.

    Worker still hanging out there, maybe if we get Optics before friendship with Genoa runs out, he can get embarkation and swim somewhere. Mongolian units are blocking the potential land paths for him.

    I promised Dido not to settle next to her, but the Crabs spot should be fine yes? I don't know for sure what the AIs consider to be too close in these situations.
     

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    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  12. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    I did not know about that trick! That is good to know, thanks for thinking to point it out. We have only played a few rounds and I have already learned something new. These succession games can be a great learning experience.
     
  13. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    Ok, first of all I realized that we are actually playing on Sparse resources. I left it on from a previous game, whoops. But, I think it will be fun. And there is the upside that there are more lux types on the map with this setting, so our happiness cap is higher.

    Got our religion with Tithe and Pagodas. Made peace with Mongolia, sold Gold and embassy for 300 g in the deal (he was offering 1gpt on his own). Then he offered friendship, and had 800 g in the bank. So I sold three more luxes & allied Genoa and Buenos Aires with the cash. (We did clear that camp with the Chariot, and got a Worker from it.) A barb horse captured our Genoese worker, though. Later Genghis invited us to war Egypt and I said yes. This should keep Genghis from eyeing our CS’s, and we have a Chariot around that can pillage and plunder.

    After more scouting, not only is the Crab accessible from a superior location across the bay with more Gold, but we can get there with Optics alone! So I built another Settler and he is heading with a Worker to this location. Scout is stationed there to prevent an unlucky camp spawn in the meantime. We can send at least 1 Caravan to Netherlands from here later. Maybe we should even settle two cities in this area, to also grab Silk?

    America70.jpg

    Some cities are pausing growth until they adopt the religion. Started a couple Triremes to shield our northern city, where I have our ranged units stationed. Dido has ships. We could get a few more Archers too and upgrade to Composites. Once we can war Dido without losing this city, we should IMO. She’s building G Lighthouse now which will be a nice capture; we’ll want seapower against Greece. It would be nice if she gets the Statue too. Even if we don't capture her cities for centuries, we can keep her subdued. She and Ramesses are both liable to steal our allies as well, so better to keep them at war.

    Going for Philosophy. We could try for Oracle; there’s a chance that the unmet civ favors it, but usually these civs build it by t80, so if it’s still around when we finish researching, it’s probably safe.

    Maybe we should enter Medieval through Theology, now that we have the Culture CS on top of the 2 Religious? But, there are so many fresh farms in Washington...

    Questions for the team at this point:
    1) What GP from Liberty?
    2) Policies: Should we go for Maritime infrastructure after Liberty, with our 4-5 coastal expos and GL capture on the horizon?
     

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  14. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    1) GP - Dunno, I think it's not gonna happen during my turns, I think I'd take an Engineer? Or maybe a Prophet? Or something depending on what CS quests might have at that time?
    2) Policies: I guess I will take Meritocracy next, then we complete Liberty with Representation and then seeing how we have so many CSs we could also go for Patronage or simply Exploration for production / happy, or Rationalism.

    A lot of things seem to work. If I hadn't messed up with Genoa's worker we would have been in an even better position but I think we are doing well with our Pagodas. Hopefully we can buy pagodas everywhere cheaply before moving into the Renaissance.
     
  15. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    I think Patronage works best if you take it early, so I see two options here:

    1) Skip Liberty policies for now, go straight for Scholasticism to boost our science. Take Liberty finisher later to rush something nice.
    2) Go for quick Theology, finish Liberty and maybe rush Borobudur or Hagia or NC. Then grab Maritime Infrastructure, and Rationalism after that.
     
  16. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    In this session we discovered Kilimanjaro and took it into into our Borders too. But the city is near the Dutch and could later become a target. However Netherlands is Piety-Patronage in this game and I doubt they will get strong.
    We also built Pyramids :D. I deviated from our plans, I felt I had to. Hopefully that is ok. I continued with Oligarchy because Dido was about to attack. More details below.

    ------------

    71. We are friends with Antananarivo for discovering Byzantine.
    I see nobody is building Pyramids and I think it would be worth to try for it. There is only 1 unmet civ. I switched to it. Unmet civ has lowest soldiers so it might be Venice. I think Venice goes the upper tech path so if I am right we might get the wonder.
    We find Kilimanjaro. It is around the Netherlands and there's also a CS but it was not absorbed yet.

    72. Belgrade CS is near Kilimanjaro and gives Conquistadores.

    73. Pay 250 to Riga to regain Ally.

    75. La Venta has been captured by Egypt. Dido is very ready to attack us next turn, she has ammased a lot of units and made it obvious, and I will have to do something about it.
    I can't do a lot, unfortunately, except pay Mongolia to DOW her for Silver and 2 gpt, and I also give her Gold for free. It looks a bit bad, maybe I am a bit too afraid but from the looks of it, in case of a war, Oligarchy is bound to be strong for defense. I take it... Our cities are really weak with 9 and 10 def and we have to kill those units quickly. Maybe we can stick to Tradition and Liberty now... Also, this should be helpful once we attack even if Dido doesn't attack after all.

    76. She did not DOW but I am not sure she abandoned her plans... I am building some Archers while they are cheap. We can then upgrade them to Composite Bowmen.
    Our religion is competing with Carthage's so I let the cities near her grow, we will probably have to take her out before spreading our own. I found Atlanta on the other side of the river from Kilimanjaro and buy it for 100 gold, and buy the Silk too.

    78. We got Pyramids and I accepted a DOF from Byzantine... Antananarivo is our ally for Pyramids achievement.

    79. Somebody allied Vatican for 1 turn and Vatican DOWed us but I made peace and regained influence.
    I pillaged a Dutch caravan and stole a missionary from them. I think we can maybe get Mosque and Cathedral with that missionary, or just delete it.
    Completed Pledge to protect quest for Genoa so we will have to revoke it in 10 turns

    80. Carthage has allied Sidon... we will have to be careful about that. Both Sidon and Vatican can be dangerous to us if we are not ready for war. I have built us some Archers and also Construction is at 1 turn.

    @vadalaz I think the next big thing we have to do is to DOW Carthage as soon as caravans finish and until then if you want to build more Archers cheaply we can delay Construction. Sorry for not finishing the Library you have started but I built Pyramids and now building another Settler in order to send it on the Sheep near the Crabs zone.
     

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  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Didn't have a chance to play this today, but I should have enough time tomorrow. I've looked at the save and here are some thoughts that I'd like the the team's input on:

    With the units we have I don't think we can really push Dido yet, but I think it's enough to liberate La Venta. I'd prefer to generate a Great General before we attack Carthage, and either use it for the combat bonus, or plant a citadel somewhere to help chew through Dido's units and move through the chokepoint, e.g. plains river SW of flood plains Wheat in Utique.

    Moving units to La Venta is gonna take a while though, so there's a risk Antananarivo takes it before we can get there. If that happens we could try to take Memphis or Thebes depending on how much damage Genghis does there, or simply send our units to Atlanta and bully William. But I can start or prepare for a defensive war vs Carthage if that's what you guys would prefer.

    I think Oracle is still doable, so is the quick Theology + Liberty finisher plan for Borobudur or Hagia Sophia. Going for Monarchy and eventually finishing Tradition seems like a good alternative to Maritime Infrastructure after finishing Liberty now. Honor is also very nice with strong melee UUs, and has synergy with Oligarchy.
     
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  18. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Prince

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    Oracle would be amazing... also maybe we can catch Petra with an engineer? could be worth it.

    About war... my take is to Dow Carthage after caravans end, and just make sure we don't let Sidon or Vatican get dangerous.
    The first general should come out soon enough.
    If we manage to expand and keep position we will surely get the upper hand eventually.

    Imho, the most important is to not lose units / cities and we're all set. sorry for not having better ideas for now :))
    I kinda feel it is a bit late to take Honor but Who knows, can't be bad, but I'd go for left side of the tree first.
     
  19. Mizzenmast

    Mizzenmast Chieftain

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    We can hope to liberate La Venta with the Chariot + swimming our Warrior, but I think the ranged units should stay at home to deter Dido.

    The other Faith buildings are taken but we can still get +2 temple happy and Defender of Faith with enhance. But I think we should heavily ramp Faith now because we can also use the Dutch missionary to buy Mosques + Cathedrals in at least 2 of our cities, so we are looking at 10+ buildings to buy, plus Missionaries to better play with the Dutch religion and spread our own. And we've lost our Faith allies, for now.

    To this end I like a religious wonder with the Liberty engineer if we can get it… preferably Borobudur. But, could we be better off going Piety + discount policy now? We have only 2 Shrines and many cities, so the opener is still good. Then our policy spread will be tailored for a super-wide approach, which we’re already doing somewhat and can lean into by founding 1 more city by the Dutch (coastal plains lake - so 3 cities total on that side) and planning to cap growth early / build Trading posts over farms. Some of our cities lack tiles anyway. Also with this strategy we have the option to get the GP Reformation belief later which would be very powerful.

    Overall, the empire is looking great but will need many turns to stabilize and grow. I think we can mostly ignore Honor and the Minuteman, play defensively (Carthage has a TR to us now so I am OK keeping the peace with her until we can steal back her CS at least), and wait to push til Artillery/ Flight. We can stay at war with Netherlands to farm the first General.

    Edit: We are very likely to win Worlds Fair too which will help get us all these policies. Let's try to fill the Writers guild soon
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2022 at 9:12 PM
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  20. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Alright, here we go.

    20220518110245_1.jpg

    La Venta liberation didn't happen. I had to make peace with Egypt because they allied Belgrade, and Atlanta would've fallen to Belgrade's 3 CBs and 2 Spearmen. And even if I managed to kill the spears, I didn't want to risk losing the city to a random Dutch horseman. Ramsesses offered a DoF, but I declined, as I didn't want to upset the Khan.

    There's a barb camp with a worker in it, likely Belgrade's, south of Atlanta. Might want to farm the barbs for a bit of XP and wait for Belgrade to target the camp for an easy ally. I sent a Chariot and a CB there to defend Atlanta and deal with the barbs. I sent the Protestantism missionary to explore the world. I don't want to help William spread his religion and Atlanta will convert to passive pressure anyway.

    Vatican asked for a trade route just as one of our caravans to Dido ended, so that was an easy and well-timed quest and we're allies again. I'm not too concerned about Sidon because I don't think they have any units. I've noticed that many CSs on the map have very few military units for some reason.

    I haven't settled the Crabs city yet, because most AIs have very few cities and I think it'll trigger the reckless expander diplo hit, which will likely lead to a DoW from Dido. I wanted the second caravan to expire first and to get everything set up properly. There's a Quinquereme south of New York which could block our workboat or pillage the Crabs potentially, and William has coastal access as well. I was meaning to settle Crabcity on the flat grassland tile to grab the Fish tiles and Iron, but there are some good alternatives. Hopefully we'll get Oracle next turn, and we get a natural policy as well. Our second Great Prophet should spawn soon. Lots of options for @Mizzenmast, should be a fun session. :)
     

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