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America: Y ur peeps b so dum?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by FriendlyFire, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Well, I'm not quite that old. :lol:

    But Sputnik did radically change education in the US. Math and science were given a much higher priority than they had before. Science and engineering were stressed.

    Isn't that true for any field of endeavor? Isn't all university education free to those who qualify? Don't you think all education should be free? Wouldn't this help alleviate all the other existing problems as well by taking class struggle and preferences to the affluent out of higher education?

    That sounds like dealing with the effects of racism and bigotry. I think we would agree that this is a fundamental difference between the two countries and should not even be a concern of the public school teachers.

    And this sounds like policies instituted during the GWB administration to try to curtail costs. Do they still exist, or do they only appear when the Republicans are in power, as do other similar absurd measures?
     
  2. Holycannoli

    Holycannoli Deity

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    Paid off by who though? Higher education is big business and someone's gonna foot that bill.

    And props to teachers who decide to teach in high poverty schools. My sister-in-law did out of college and is glad to be in a better school now. It's crazy what they have to put up with and what little they see from their students for the effort.
     
  3. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Hey now, don't you be bringing our standards down!

    Signed, Nerdy Canada
     
  4. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Are you sure about that? I know that it's true at the statewide level for collective bargaining (states with collective bargaining for teachers have higher achievement rates), but I think thats honestly a global warming/# of pirates sort of thing. I'm not sure if that's true at the district level.


    It is unquestionably true, but that doesn't mean we should abdicate responsibility from school leadership to do more.
     
  5. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    I'm pretty sure someone posted something to that extent (probably JR) in the lengthy thread about the Wisconsin protests.

    Yes, but in the right areas. They can't do it all. I just don't know enough about the inner workings of a school (like DT or Fifty does) to say where that needs to be applied. But it seems to me that increasing a school's funding isn't solving the problem. And that's part of the problem for us, there's not a whole lot "we" can do to solve it. That's why I hate making a statement like "parents need to step up" because I don't know how to make that happen! It sounds like abdicating responsibility. But then it's not really our responsibility, is it? I suppose I could form an argument about how our socio-political system has created this, make an allusion to Marx's dissolution of the family trope, and further politicize this thread, but I must run off to do laundry and am all Marxed-out today already.

    EDIT: Darwin's beard, you got me good! Better report it.
     
  6. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    That's true, but for who? Did that get passed down to the schools on the Indian reservations? To the segregated schools in Alabama? Or just white midwestern kids? What did it mean to stress STEM back then? I don't really know.

    I don't really think all higher-ed should be free necessarily (or feasible), but I don't think the debt problem is as big a deal for other professions...going into debt for a job that may eventually pay 90K is different from one that will pay in the high 40s for a long time.

    And poverty! The people in reform positions today who say that poverty doesn't matter are absolutely out of their mind.

    Oh, this is bipartisan. I think the roots for this movement actually started with Clinton, and the Obama DOE has taken the reins far and above what GWB did. Duncan and Vallas are heads of this movement.
     
  7. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Well, you'd either have to partner with major industries at a state level to create a fund, like Texas or Georgia do to give tons of instate scholarships, or create a Federal Fund.

    I'm not sure how expensive it would be...I imagine that several people would leave before the 5 year commitment and the state wouldn't have to pay out. It wouldn't be popular right now, with the deficit, but in the long run, if it actually significant closed the achievement gap (or if lots of these teachers left before they get into expensive-pension territory), it would eventually save money.
    Yeah, so that's state by state. Pirates and Global Temperature.
     
  8. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

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    Well a standardized education system between the US and Canada would destroy Canada, as its identity is entirely defined by how its school curriculum shows how they are different from other anglophone countries. This is a good thing, yes? Would make annexation much smoother.
     
  9. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    As I understand it, it isn't that education was "better" then. It is more of a case of the education meeting the needs of the students, the society, and the economy.

    The needs have changed. And education has failed to change with the changing needs.



    This is really about government, and voter, cheapness. They are unwilling to pay the costs of the results that they claim that they want. And so shift the blame to teachers and families instead.
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Bring back the Civ2 theme!

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    We're told that we're losing because we don't spend enough money yet the U.S. spends more per student than other industrialized countries. (OECD)

    Spending per elementary and secondary student, 2006
    U.S. - $10,267
    Canada - $7,774
    Australia - $7,459
    UK - $8,306
    France - $7,712
    Germany - $6,985
    Japan - $7,661
    Korea - $6,089
     
  11. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    It's true, we are, but we also allocate that money poorly, and spend money on things that other industrialized countries don't.

    Schools in Japan and Korea (or the EU for that matter) do not require the same amount of say, social workers, or supplemental personnel that we require our schools to have. By require, I don't necessarily mean via legislative fiat , but by obvious need.

    Some of the changes we need (by themselves) don't cost any money, but they require political sacrifices that folks would be unwilling to make. The other reforms are going to cost money, at least up front. The current system also costs a *lot* of money, but isn't doing very well.

    Kinda like healthcare.
     
  12. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    It radically affected the scientific and engineering communities in the US by significantly increasing funding of R&D, and it triggered the Space Race.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_crisis

    But no, the blacks and other minorities were even more oppressed back then than they are now. This had little or no effect on them.

    I think lower-class kids having no real way to go to college other than on athletic scholarships is a fundamental aspect of the problem. Free, or at least heavily subsidized, higher education would radically change who can go to college, and it would likely have dramatic impact on the people who now live in poverty with no real way to escape.

    Indeed.


    I seriously doubt cutting educational funding was bipartisan since it never has been, at least AFAIK. Congress was solidly Republican back then. And now, the same thing has happened since the 2010 elections:



    URL

    This chart also clearly shows how educational spending skyrocketed in the 50s and the 60s. It also shows that federal funding is a tiny fraction of the budget which became nearly non-existent in 2008 and is becoming so once again.
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus Bring back the Civ2 theme!

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    Agreed.

    Actually, the chart shows that federal spending remained the same until the Great Society programs. You're seeing local spending increase radically during the fifties and sixties.
     
  14. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Yeah, I knew about that, but I guess I'd want more info on how what that looked like in the classroom on a daily (or local) basis. We require our HS graduates to take more math classes now than we did in say, the 1970s, and I'd a little surprised if all HS graduates way back then had to be judged proficient in say, Calc.

    I really don't think this is the case. In all honesty, if you are *really* poor, you have a better chance to attend a university debt free (or carrying very little debt) than somebody who is lower-middle class, because you have access to a litany of favorable financing opportunities...often stuff that is administered at the state or local level. Not that it isn't a problem (in this economy, anybody, regardless of socioeconomic status or race, is taking a pretty big risk if they graduate with 20K in debt), but I think having access to college ready SKILLS is a bigger concern than affordability, which of course, you'll be missing out on because if you're poor, you likely go to a crappy school.



    I'm not talking about cutting funding, I'm talking about going out of their way to fire/let go of experienced teachers
     
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I'd think that the standards should naturally rise over time, because teaching methods should improve over time. If there isn't much innovation in education, that's a serious issue with the whole ability to get a PhD in Education.
     
  16. BuckeyeJim

    BuckeyeJim King

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    I sympathize with your personal experience of having to work while earning a masters degree! It certainly does suck, eats up a ton of time no matter how slow you work at it, and is not right for teachers. I mean, I know it's possible to work and go to school, but it's not right to the students themselves. It detracts from their ability to learn, and so I really feel that teachers should either take summer classes, or have the ability to take a few years off of school to obtain the masters degree if required.

    I disagree with the funding source though. I don't care who you are, what you do, teacher or not, you should have to make your own personal sacrifice towards your own education. And while teachers may not have their entire degree paid for, they sure get a lot of financial support.

    Also, 20K isn't unmanageable debt. At one point I had a little more than 20K in debt and I never really had to sweat it. It amounted to less than $300 a month, and I managed make my monthly payment on time. During those years I would have gladly earned a teachers salary.
     
  17. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    All that really accomplishes is to force many people to forgo an education and make the nation as a whole a poorer place.
     
  18. BuckeyeJim

    BuckeyeJim King

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    Why? Graduate high school, go to college, get a teachers job, earn money to pay back loans for a few years. If you need a masters to teach, take a couple years off, acquire a few grand in debt, and go back to teaching and pay it back. The system worked well for quite a long time, and while there are nations with different models that exceed our marks, we're ahead of a lot of nations with universal education.

    There's nothing, I repeat, nothing that is wrong with investing in yourself. In fact, investing in yourself means that you'll be infinitely more motivated to succeed than if someone else is paying for you. The burden is on your shoulders.

    Having the feds pay for education isn't necessarily going to result in better teachers. A likely result will be increased tuition costs for the same classes and lower standards to attract people into those programs. There's no justification to create a special classification for teachers when it comes to college education. We all go to college for the purpose of filling in a spot that is demanded by society, teacher or not. None of us should be treated in a special manner.
     
  19. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    It's called a public goods problem. The costs are simply too high for everyone who could benefit from it to pay for it themselves. And so not enough investment will take place. And because of that the total economic growth of the nation will be held back.
     
  20. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Would you support getting rid of the GI Bill then?

    I can assure you, teaching in certain high poverty classrooms certainly qualifies as a personal sacrifice towards your education :)

    I can understand your objection...I also think people need to sacrifice for their education, which is why I don't think all higher education should be free either. However, for people going to do difficult public service, I see no problem with providing a little incentive. I'm fine with giving GI's college breaks, or helping pay for med school for guys agreeing to service in hard to staff clinics, or for going to teach in Detroit. I think those all count as sacrifices.
     

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