***america***

[PCHighway]

Should the U.S.A. be a civ. If not why,If so why not?
I think we all can agree that right now(in reality) the U.S. is the most powerfull Country out there..............But I'm open for suggestions. Also unlike most of you out there, I think the Iroquois SHOULD be in there not the Lakota.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I think that ideally the Americans should be part of the English civ or, at least, part of an Anglophonic civ including the Australians, British Canadians, New Zealanders, modern Scots and modern Irish. At the moment they are separate states, but I bet that if you go 2000 years into the future :rocket: they will be regarded as pretty much the same civ, just as we think of the Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians, etc as part of the Greek civ. Lets face it, there are some minor differences, but separating them as civs for a game which covers 6000 years of history is silly. It's just splitting hairs.

However, were firaxis to do this, I doubt that they would see a great improvement in sales. I guess most of us just don't have the vision!

 

[hzm]

I think USA should be in the game, but it should be in the form of a civ splitting from Britain. So you could also have Australia, Canada, etc.

 

[SKILORD]

how in heavens name could you do that? program the game to have a (unstoppable) revolt so that one can be sure that these countries existed? Complaining about america being in there from the start is just as dumb as complaining that Abe Lincon/ catherine of Russia/ Bismark of Germany are not really immortal and so you should have to change ur leader... well just about every turn in ancient times. what's more these leaders weren't alive in 4000 BC let alone the rest of these civs.

my next point in trying to get Civ to conform with reality. what about this whole settler thing, i mean who, in reality builds settlers, imagine some german cheiftan going
"Whow those romans are sending in settlers that took them 10 turns to make into my territory, better blockade them with spearmen so they can't get to the other side."
why can't you see this, there are many reasons:
1. the real world doesn't work on a turn basis.
2. Cities aren't normally settled due to the fact that the government wants a city there.
3. Germany never had spearmen, well actually i cannot think of any of these civs actually having spearmen, let alone having one of realities leaders telling one of their cities:
"You will build a spearman for me and it will be done in 3 turns."

Next the range of governments is too narrow, also what type of leader, in reality now, would say:
"hey, let's all have a revolution to get ourselves a more advanced government."

Civ3 is not reality, while the game is excellent, it is still not real. to expect it to be real and to complain about it not being real shows how real it really is, or how gullible you are. (to explain my thinking to the masses, the game is real enough that you expect complete reality from it)

 

[SvenSlayer]

Well, the English come from the Saxons, Angles and others (some even come from the Vikings that settled there). So let's just accept America as a civ that comes mainly from the English (and a little from some other colonial powers). (Perhaps civ isn't the proper word.) Perhaps it seems silly to have a civ in the game that's only about 200 years old, but where do you draw the line? At 300 years? 400? It's difficult to say.

I don't mind having the Americans in the game. If any civ should be taken out, it's the Zulu (but, of course, it's interesting to have at least one African civ in the game besides the Egyptians).

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

make sure you read the "civilizations Whines Requirements" announce ment above and then get some original material in this thread.

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
make sure you read the "civilizations Whines Requirements" announce ment above and then get some original material in this thread.

Especially number 7

 

[kcheung]

There's no point comparing the American "civilization" with, say a thousand year old civ like Indian or Chinese. To me, they are all civilizations. They just start at different time. People tend to think that older civilization is great, but think about it, 5000 years ago when these civilizations are still in their infant period, may be their people are worshipping some older civs!

U.S.A. IS a civilization -- you don't have to like it, but it is the most influencial civilization nowadays. That civilization is made up of Hollywood stars, Disney cartoon, McDonald's burger, StarBuck's coffee, Apple/MS/Intel's computer and software, and Yahoo/eBay/AOL and countless websites.

I also don't buy the idea that the USA civilization "splits" from the English. Yea, may be the USA 100 years ago, but not now. There are certain aspects of the current USA cultures that have their root from the English, but there are other contributors also.

 

[PCHighway]

Well Said!

 

[Ve Grand Poobah]

I'm not sure.
America is essentially the Second English Power (A bit Like Macedonia in Regards to Greece). Maybe when some guy is making Civ 300 in 3000A.D He'll Clump us (us being England, US, Canada, Oz & Sheep Fuc... New Zealend) together as carelessly as The Meier Man did to the Greeks all those years ago.

If I was a Spartan who travelled to now, I'd be Pretty P*ssed that some Macedonian whose capital is based in Attica was representing me.....

 

[kcheung]

That really depends on how you define what the USA "civilization" is (if you accept that it's a civ.)

To me, the civ of USA didn't really start until mid-WW2 or even post-WW2 and it is still evolving and influencing the world ... it may not be the best example, someone who has a better example please correct me -- Latino music has heavy influence in American pop music in the last couple years. Thru the power of Hollywood, Latino-American music becomes a worldwide pop musical trend -- is it part of the American culture? I think so. But it is not coming from the English.

 

[Eric The Fish]

America isn't just an offshoot of English culture. American culture has been influenced by imagrants from all over Europe, Asia, Africa, and Central America which is itself a mixture of Native American and Spanish. We speak English but we are about as close to the English culturally as we are to Japanese. Canadians and Aussies could make the same arguement I'm sure. The reason, however, that America is a civ and those aren't is the influence that American culture has had on the world (militarily, economically, and the last time i checked you could see American movies and tv shows just about all over the world). Now you might say that American culture is just a mixture of foreign cultures. But England is really a mixture of Roman, Celtic, Viking, German, and some French.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Of course America has been formed by a variety of cultures but to say that Americans are as close to the English as the Japanese is absurd, and you would recognize that if you had any knowledge of Japanese social life and traditional customs. The very best that I would say for your point of view is that America is a much broader mixture of European cultures than England. The Germans, Irish, Scots, Italians and Iberians probably contributed as much to American culture as the English. But equally there are very few important characteristics that are definable as English because England has been subject to various influences in the same way.

Both the English and North Americans share the same language. Both have similar political institutions and both are conservative countries. They are both capitalist countries. They both have culturally embedded notions of freedom even though there are slight differences. Whatever differences there are at present are disappearing because of the growth of the one world culture, which is bringing England and America together faster because of the common language and level of economic development.

I think that if you want to start braking down one civ into many, you have to come up with differences between them that are as strong as the differences between the other civs. I don't think that this way of thinking separates England and America, and certainly not England and Australia. I really think you need more than Latino music to to outway the common language (and other uniting factors) and separate the 2 civs over a 6000 year period.



Iroquois Chinese Zulu Americans English Australians

C/f

Iroquois Chinese Zulu Athenians Spartans Ephesians


Surely in a game with 16 (or 32) civs, no one would say that the Athenians, Spartans and Ephesians should be separated as civs. If not then I don't see any good reason why the Anglophonic civ should be separated into English, Americans and Australians. Why not divide the Indians, the Chinese, the Iroquois and the Russians? You'll encounter more cultural differences in a 50-mile walk in India or a boat journey in Micronesia than you will in a flight between London and New York. The differences that may appear large to an American and an Englishman would probably appear subtle, obscure and irrelevant to an ancient Greek or a medieval Arab. I really think you need more than Latino music to to outway the common language and separate the 2 civs over a 6000 year period.

 

[PCHighway]

Originally posted by calgacus

...Surely in a game with 16 (or 32) civs, no one would say that the Athenians, Spartans and Ephesians should be separated as civs...Quote

This, is crazy. Separating the Athenians with other greek city states? HAVE you gone mad! Arguably, at the time the Greeks were most powerful, was when Alexander the great united (took over) greece. At this time the Athenians, Spartans, and Corinthians all FOUGHT together. At this time i'm guessing, marriage between Athenians and say, corinthians was no big deal. It would be like someone from New york marrying someone from New Jersey.

...If not then I don't see any good reason why the Anglophonic civ should be separated into English, Americans and Australians. ...Quote

Okay, When the english settled what is Currently The East U.S.
they were'nt the only Europeans there, but they were the most powerfull, or put more Support behind their colonies.



...I really think you need more than Latino music to to outway the common language and separate the 2 civs over a 6000 year period. ...Quote

True and probaly the only thing I agree with. However you also need more than just a common language, to take away the wars fought between the U.S. and England.

 

[Pangur Bán]

True and probaly the only thing I agree with. However you also need more than just a common language, to take away the wars fought between the U.S. and England.

I'm neither English nor American, but I really don't think that the few wars following America's indepedence are a strong argument for separating the civs,
After all, Greek states fought each other more and we wouldn't consider that to be enough. Plus, the Greek states were NEVER all united before the Romans conquered them, and, in fact, Alexander did not conquer Sparta. But if you really believe that dipolmatic relations are that important (I don't - can't see any good reason), consider the close relations since the Great War.

 

[SKILORD]

America is the most powerful nation on the earth at the current time. England isn't.... ergo they are seperate..... American forces WERE the backbone of the Allies in the World Wars (i know you disagree whoever you are but i don't care) America brought about the fall of the Soviet Union. The greeks are completely different from America and Britain Greek culture was very similar in all the cities except maybe Sparta British and American cultures are profoundly different and as i have noted before, the affect of america on the world has been great, far greater than many of the civs that you people whine about not being in the game.

 

[Pangur Bán]

America is the most powerful nation on the earth at the current time. England isn't.... ergo they are seperate..... American forces WERE the backbone of the Allies in the World Wars (i know you disagree whoever you are but i don't care) America brought about the fall of the Soviet Union. The greeks are completely different from America and Britain Greek culture was very similar in all the cities except maybe Sparta British and American cultures are profoundly different and as i have noted before, the affect of america on the world has been great, far greater than many of the civs that you people whine about not being in the game.

I don't think they are profoundly different. In fairness to myself, no one has actually given good reasons as to why they are profoundly different whereas I have given some of the reasons I believe make them one civ. The ancient Greek cities were certainly not more similar to each other than England and America are. Customs, myths, political organization and language did a great deal to make each of them distinctive. I know you made Sparta an exception, but Athens perhaps rivals Sparta in its distinctiveness from 'other Greek states'. I can't see why you could think Athens has more in common with Gortyn in Crete, or that Cyrene in Libya had more in common with Massilia in Liguria than England and America have with each other.

America is the most powerful nation on the earth at the current time. England isn't.... ergo they are seperate.....

I find it baffling that anyone would believe that to be a good argument.:

1."America is the most powerful nation on the earth at the current time. England isn't"
Therefore
3. "they are separate"

the only way that this argument could work would be if you said

2."If any two states have a power disparity between them at any time, they cannot be the same civ and have to be separate".

and if you said this, then no civ in the game could be a civ because they have all at various times been disunited (possibly with the exception of the Romans). The Germans could not be a civ because in the first half of the 19th century Prussia was more powerful than Bavaria. The English couldn't be a civ because Wessex was once more powerful than Mercia. Even America itself could not be a civ because the Yankees were once more powerful than the Confederates.

I'm not saying that America should be a junior part of an English civ. When I brought this up I used the term "English civ" to mean a civ in which all of the main English speaking countries could have a place. I am not English and I am not American, and I am not advocating the superiority of England over the United States.
In fact I would make New York the capital of any Anglophonic civ. Since the Great War America has become the greatest state on Earth and she is currently the only superpower. American culture is the most influential in the world even if not everyone likes it and America leads the rest of the world in most things. All this I acknowledge, so please don't think I am trying to put America down. My point is that the English, Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, British Canadians, the modern Scots and modern Irish (and possibly some South Africans) are part of the same worldwide civ.

 

[sealman]

Just because America is the "child" of England does not make them the same. Is anyone here the same as their parents? No. Similar, yes.

Regarding Sparta, Athens and the other Greek city states: hopefully everyone realizes that the ancient Greeks despised each other and constantly fouht. While this is true, they were culturaly one and the same. They had the same roots, language, religion, etc. ergo, they should be classified as one civilization. After all, if you had an Athens civ, what would the cities be? Same with Sparta.

In fact, you could even include Italy. During the early days of Rome, citizens of the city of Roman, considered themselves different from the other Italians on the "boot". (Any Italian civs on the forums can elaborate on this.) Don't forget Germany, which is also made up of various Germanic tribes. People are arguing that the Spanish are not include (which I think they should be but that is another point), same thing to an even greater extent.

What about the Russians, there were other peoples in Mother Russian that helped build that country. The Cossacks, Urkraniansm etc. Should we break them up and have an Uzbek civilizations (no offense to any Uzbeks out there)? Starting to digress here......

To get back to my point... The Greek City states were all founded by the same cultures. America is a mix of mulit-cultures, not just English. The French were here. Spain was here. Immigrants are still arriving.

The Olympic games is another good example of why they should be classified as one civilization. Even during their wars and petty disputes, they still got together amongst all Greeks and held the Games for the glory of Greece, not just Sparta and Athens but all of Greece. True Athens wanted their athletes to beat the Spartans just like New Yorkers want their sports teams to beat San Francisco's.

Now to the main point. Firaxis is in the United States, their programs Americans (I am assuming here), I would argue that a higher percentage of games are sold to Americans than any other single Nationality (again an assumption). Why would they make a game about Great Civilizations and not include the dominat civilization today as well as their own home. After all, many modders are adding their respective country to the game so even if the US does not deserve to be in the game based on some peoples formula, Firaxis just saved us some modding.

If the US was not included, this discussion would be the reverse, why are the excluded.

 

[sealman]

addendum to my previous post....

As far as I am aware, England only founded colonies on the Eastern Coast of the US. Last time I looked at a map, the coutry spanned the continent. Where did those lands come from....

Spain... France.... the Native Americans and Pacific Island Tribes.... Mexico..... The Russians.....

England and America are as different as:

Golden Delicious Apples and Granny Smith Apples.

Simliar but yet distinct.

 

[Pangur Bán]

They had the same roots, language, religion, etc.

I don't know what you were thinking when you wrote the above. I don't think I should need to point out that the English and Americans also have the same language and religion.
I'm not sure what you mean by the same 'roots', but if you're talking about race then all I'll say is that the Greeks tended to resemble the different races in their various hinterlands rather than share any pan-Hellenic racial features. If you're talking about cultural roots, then that's not any more true of the different Greek-speaking states than it is of the English-speaking states. Greeks founded Greek states just as English-speaking people founded America. OK, America THEN became influenced by other cultures (German, Spanish, Irish, Scottish, French, etc). But did that not also happen to the Greek states? The Greeks of Alexandria came to worship Egyptian gods as much as their own, the Greeks of Asia Minor came to worship Asiatic gods like Cybele, the Greek states of Italy become Italicised, etc. Another point worth considering is that England itself has arguably changed as much from the time that the English founded the 13 colonies as America has. Possibly not, but if so, would we have to make modern England a separate civ from Elizabethan England because England has since undergone Caribbean, Indian and other influences?

Linguistically, the English and Americans have far more in common than Greek linguistic groups like the Dorians and Ionians. Perhaps this is to be expected given the comparative ease of transport between now and then, but this still has to be taken into account when using language to separate the English and the Americans (a suicidal strategy methinks :suicide: )

You mention the Olympic games a0s a factor uniting the Greeks: YES YES YES. I'm not arguing that the Greeks were not one civ!
The 4 Pan-Hellenic sanctuaries are other uniting factors.
But there are modern Olympics. I know they do not exclude non-Anglophones (they're French in origin), but the point is that they bring both together. There is also the Commonwealth games that to some extent do exclude non-Anglophones by the fact that participation is restricted to members of the Commonwealth. America is not a member of the Commonwealth because it was not part of the British Empire that fell after the 2nd World War,
but the other English states are. The Greeks had artificial institutions like these because it was a way that Greeks could come together in a world in which they were surrounded and constantly threatened by barbarian. America is so dominant and strong that it needs no way of expressing its brotherhood with other English speaking states. In saying that though, virtually all English-speaking states have been as thick as thieves since the Great War, and non-English speaking nations (e.g. the French) notice it.