America
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JamesNinelives
Emperor
Shoshone and Carthage are explicitly created to be early-game focused. Honestly, comparing America to Shoshone and Carthage seems bad faith. America's UU and UB are both mid-game. I may as well say that the Comanche Rider doesn't stand out among ranged cavalry the way the Minutemen stands out among ranged units, and therefore The Shoshone are worse off because I'm looking only at the UU aspect of the civs.
I would actually put USA ahead of Shoshone and Carthage if I made a tier list. Though I think his strength is a lot less obvious than those two (those are like the two most beginner friendly civs).
A monument is 80 gold for 33 hammers. About 2.4 gold for 1 hammer. Other things are more efficient to use gold on but typically the best you get is 2 gold for 1 hammer.
USA's bonus at the start is 25 gold for 25 hammers and the gold cost slowly goes up. By the time you reach the cost for a tile to a normal civ, you have earned hundreds of hammers in production from the efficiency gains. And you get a tile as well, and the tile purchasing is far more flexible than investing (you can use it on settlers). As time goes on tile costs will drop and the bonus scales with era.
Wonders are closer to 4 gold for 1 hammer when investing. So even if you purchased tiles until regular investment became inefficient, you still get an advantage when using it on wonders. Scamming wonders you have no business building is Washington's specialty. You are right that eventually regular investment becomes what you do, and that's okay. It still helped you get a strong start and remains useful for wonders.
In order to reach this point you have to buy dozens of tiles (a lot more than Shoshone gets for free) and that point you've earned hundreds of culture from those purchases.
A monument is 80 gold for 33 hammers. About 2.4 gold for 1 hammer. Other things are more efficient to use gold on but typically the best you get is 2 gold for 1 hammer.
USA's bonus at the start is 25 gold for 25 hammers and the gold cost slowly goes up. By the time you reach the cost for a tile to a normal civ, you have earned hundreds of hammers in production from the efficiency gains. And you get a tile as well, and the tile purchasing is far more flexible than investing (you can use it on settlers). As time goes on tile costs will drop and the bonus scales with era.
Wonders are closer to 4 gold for 1 hammer when investing. So even if you purchased tiles until regular investment became inefficient, you still get an advantage when using it on wonders. Scamming wonders you have no business building is Washington's specialty. You are right that eventually regular investment becomes what you do, and that's okay. It still helped you get a strong start and remains useful for wonders.
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I played the first 100ish turns on deity with America a few weeks ago to see how silly I could go with wonders. I got Henge, Pyramid, Maus, Artemis, Roman Forum, and Hanging Garden. I may have gotten Terracotta too, can't remember for sure now. Founded with Beauty on like turn 82ish? I don't think that kind of opening is possible with anyone else.
The tile buying -> production UA is really strong for wonder sniping early. You could also use it to land grab by using it on settlers, including building settlers in secondary cities where the tiles are still cheap. Or using it to get secondary cities up to date on infrastructure sooner when going wide, since the production is strongest relative to low production cities and cheapest when the city hasn't grown its borders much.
My main gripe with America is that building all the early wonders doesn't really fit with America historically, obviously. I imagine some other yield would make thematic sense better than production, like maybe getting culture? Buying tiles and fueling settlers to go wide does make some thematic sense I suppose. I do wish the AI wasn't favoring authority- it just doesn't make as much sense with their kit.
The tile buying -> production UA is really strong for wonder sniping early. You could also use it to land grab by using it on settlers, including building settlers in secondary cities where the tiles are still cheap. Or using it to get secondary cities up to date on infrastructure sooner when going wide, since the production is strongest relative to low production cities and cheapest when the city hasn't grown its borders much.
My main gripe with America is that building all the early wonders doesn't really fit with America historically, obviously. I imagine some other yield would make thematic sense better than production, like maybe getting culture? Buying tiles and fueling settlers to go wide does make some thematic sense I suppose. I do wish the AI wasn't favoring authority- it just doesn't make as much sense with their kit.
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Why? Big production bonuses synergies with Authority well if you use it to produce military.
In theory, yes. In practice I don't think it works that great compared to using the production for settlers/wonders. The AI doesn't tend to have difficulty producing military units up to its cap. It has difficulty using its military successfully and there isn't a whole lot helping America there in the early game. Their units get extra sight but I don't think that's going to put them on par with civs that have early UUs. America's UU is nice but it arrives later so it's not a great justification for going authority IMO.
In the current meta, if the America AI was coded to go tradition and use its production UA for wonders I bet they could be scarier than Siam currently is. If they were coded for Progress and to use their UA on settlers or general infrastructure they could also be quite strong I imagine. As authority they seem to just fail most of the time.
Wait, civs are coded to go certain policies? I thought they calculate which is best given the situation and their flavor. Maybe weight of flavor should be reduced.
They have flavor towards certain policies, but it's quite strong. Playing on Deity there is an extreme lack of variety in social policy choices from it. On anything lower you should get more, because Deity AI always make what they consider the best choice, but immortal and lower they sometimes randomnly pick the second best option.
Zanteogo
King
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I'm wondering if this is a game speed issue? I play on slower speeds so maybe it's because the hammer don't scale right to game speed? I'm only shaving a 2 or 3 turns off a 30 turn wonder buying tiles on marathon.
Played both recently, though I agree both are strong early game, I would say that Carthage it great the whole game. (a road less city connection network makes a ton of a gold) Their trade bonus though not the meat of their civ, also stays relevant the whole game. Shoshone are certainly early bloomers. However, all games are usually mostly decided in the 1/4 of the play through. Humans can crawl out of a bad start due to our ability to play better in with long term game, but AIs certainly stick to their place mostly after a certain point. I have pointed out before that civs that get their power late in the game need to be better because they have to struggle to get to that point. Germany is a good example of how this works, as they are the best civ if they can slug it past the early stages. Sadly not all the late bloomer civs do this.
I would also say that though America get's their UU mid game, they are pretty much a early game civ as their UA is really only that useful early game. The +1 sight though alright the whole game, is more useful during the early game scout rush. After a certain point you run out of tiles to buy in your main cities, and the cost of said tiles becomes crazy.
Like I said, I don't think they are the worst civ, but I do think they are a bottom tier civ for sure. I would give them a +1 gold per city just to give them a bit more buying power when it comes to tile buying.
Problem is with America, if you are using the tile buying abilities you are pretty much always broke. You have to watch your gold to units carefully because you don't have the breathing room if you start to go into the red. Also when it comes to upgrading your first units you need to put the tile buying on hold. You can also pretty much just straight up buy the first and second generation of units for the price of a tile anyways. No point in buying tile production to knock off a couple turns when you can just knock all of them off in one go.
Played both recently, though I agree both are strong early game, I would say that Carthage it great the whole game. (a road less city connection network makes a ton of a gold) Their trade bonus though not the meat of their civ, also stays relevant the whole game. Shoshone are certainly early bloomers. However, all games are usually mostly decided in the 1/4 of the play through. Humans can crawl out of a bad start due to our ability to play better in with long term game, but AIs certainly stick to their place mostly after a certain point. I have pointed out before that civs that get their power late in the game need to be better because they have to struggle to get to that point. Germany is a good example of how this works, as they are the best civ if they can slug it past the early stages. Sadly not all the late bloomer civs do this.
I would also say that though America get's their UU mid game, they are pretty much a early game civ as their UA is really only that useful early game. The +1 sight though alright the whole game, is more useful during the early game scout rush. After a certain point you run out of tiles to buy in your main cities, and the cost of said tiles becomes crazy.
Like I said, I don't think they are the worst civ, but I do think they are a bottom tier civ for sure. I would give them a +1 gold per city just to give them a bit more buying power when it comes to tile buying.
Problem is with America, if you are using the tile buying abilities you are pretty much always broke. You have to watch your gold to units carefully because you don't have the breathing room if you start to go into the red. Also when it comes to upgrading your first units you need to put the tile buying on hold. You can also pretty much just straight up buy the first and second generation of units for the price of a tile anyways. No point in buying tile production to knock off a couple turns when you can just knock all of them off in one go.
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I wouldn't be surprised that playing on epic/marathon changes things for America's UA.
How it plays out on standard speed:
Early game, your capital's production/turn is pretty small- maybe like 10ish? Gold cost of initial tiles is also pretty small- 25-40 gold maybe? So each tile bought can speed your production by 2ish turns each time. 3-4 tiles purchased can probably cut the time to build a wonder in half and that's plenty to help you grab wonders like crazy- 6 wonders in ancient/classical on deity is pretty doable (one of which is usually from a GE).
It requires having a good feel for when wonders usually get taken so that you know how aggressive you need to get and spend gold. It also requires scrapping for every piece of gold you can get- tributing CSs, clearing easy barb camps, connecting and selling luxes ASAP.
By late classical the capital's tiles probably get overly expensive and likely aren't worth buying for production anymore. It still might be worth buying tiles in low production satellite cities where the extra production has a bigger impact.
Using early capital tile buys to rush settlers can also be nice- the faster the settlers get built the faster your capital goes back to being able to grow again and not largely wasting food yields. I think the wonder strategy is stronger and more fun, though.
How it plays out on standard speed:
Early game, your capital's production/turn is pretty small- maybe like 10ish? Gold cost of initial tiles is also pretty small- 25-40 gold maybe? So each tile bought can speed your production by 2ish turns each time. 3-4 tiles purchased can probably cut the time to build a wonder in half and that's plenty to help you grab wonders like crazy- 6 wonders in ancient/classical on deity is pretty doable (one of which is usually from a GE).
It requires having a good feel for when wonders usually get taken so that you know how aggressive you need to get and spend gold. It also requires scrapping for every piece of gold you can get- tributing CSs, clearing easy barb camps, connecting and selling luxes ASAP.
By late classical the capital's tiles probably get overly expensive and likely aren't worth buying for production anymore. It still might be worth buying tiles in low production satellite cities where the extra production has a bigger impact.
Using early capital tile buys to rush settlers can also be nice- the faster the settlers get built the faster your capital goes back to being able to grow again and not largely wasting food yields. I think the wonder strategy is stronger and more fun, though.
Zanteogo
King
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So I did some testing.. I took some numbers on how much tile cost per speed level by how much production it gave. I also took note of the starting cost and buy out cost of buildings. (I used the monument as a standard)
(each number is speed level, quick/standard/epic/marathon)
Monument Cost
43/65/97/197 hammers. 60/80/100/175 to rush 50% production.
This means buying out traditionally your gold to hammers is 2.8/2.5/2.1/1.8
American Tile Buying
20/35/45/105 average cost of a starting tile. 10/20/30/40 american production gained per tile bought.
This means buying out tiles your gold to hammers FOR THE FIRST TILE is 2/1.75/1.5/2.6
So far it looks like marathon America is paying way more. Considering it's 1.8 gold per hammer compared to 2.6 per hammer. The rest of the speed levels get slightly better deals. However, now if we take in cost increase..
Tile Cost Increase
This is complex, it seems each tile cost about 25% more than the previous. It's difficult because the game takes things into account like how many sides has a border on it and gives a discount per side. Plus there seem to be a global cost increase that all cities add to. This is what kills America because the percentage on smaller starting numbers means the ballooning happens much slower. The increase on quick speed in practice seems to be about 1 or 2 gold per tile. On Marathon this is insane because the starting numbers are much higher, the increase is way faster. It's supposed to be balanced by bigger gold hauls. (barbarian camps and ruins do give more) However the basic gold gained from working tiles for example is the same. The counter to this is the fact that because there are more turns between "events" that you gain more gold over time. It doesn't work well with America however. After a few tile buy outs you much better off traditional buying out.
Buy wait, don't you also get a tile?
Yes. This is hard to factor in because it depends on the situation. However, considering this is the core of their UA, it SHOULD be a massive bonus on their part. (when really a 5 or 6 extra tiles over a whole game isn't a big deal)
What about units?
Buying out units using tiles is a total waste of gold. You can often buy the whole unit for the cost of the tile, but if you buy a tile your only adding about 20% of the hammers to the unit.
edit: Other than settlers. I didn't bother to check their cost difference but from experience on the last two speed levels you knock off about 10% to 20% of the settler production. Again, on faster speeds doable. Not so much on the slower.
edit: One thing to consider is that units bought out via tile buying come at full experience. The thing is with America this is usually a non-factor because by the time you have buildings that give game changing experience you have usually "maxed out" your tile cost ballooning.
What about wonders?
For the first couple wonders it does help because traditional wonder buying only gives 25% of the total production while costing the same as an equivalent building.
Summary
American tile buying seems mostly balanced on quick and standard. Still not amazing, considering it's their UA, but alright. Epic it's ok for the first couple buys but tile cost increase quickly takes over. Marathon America gets screwed big time.
I would increase the hammers per tile for Epic from 30 base to 35. I would increase marathon from 40 to 50. I would also consider giving America a +1 gold per city to give them a break with gold management.
(each number is speed level, quick/standard/epic/marathon)
Monument Cost
43/65/97/197 hammers. 60/80/100/175 to rush 50% production.
This means buying out traditionally your gold to hammers is 2.8/2.5/2.1/1.8
American Tile Buying
20/35/45/105 average cost of a starting tile. 10/20/30/40 american production gained per tile bought.
This means buying out tiles your gold to hammers FOR THE FIRST TILE is 2/1.75/1.5/2.6
So far it looks like marathon America is paying way more. Considering it's 1.8 gold per hammer compared to 2.6 per hammer. The rest of the speed levels get slightly better deals. However, now if we take in cost increase..
Tile Cost Increase
This is complex, it seems each tile cost about 25% more than the previous. It's difficult because the game takes things into account like how many sides has a border on it and gives a discount per side. Plus there seem to be a global cost increase that all cities add to. This is what kills America because the percentage on smaller starting numbers means the ballooning happens much slower. The increase on quick speed in practice seems to be about 1 or 2 gold per tile. On Marathon this is insane because the starting numbers are much higher, the increase is way faster. It's supposed to be balanced by bigger gold hauls. (barbarian camps and ruins do give more) However the basic gold gained from working tiles for example is the same. The counter to this is the fact that because there are more turns between "events" that you gain more gold over time. It doesn't work well with America however. After a few tile buy outs you much better off traditional buying out.
Buy wait, don't you also get a tile?
Yes. This is hard to factor in because it depends on the situation. However, considering this is the core of their UA, it SHOULD be a massive bonus on their part. (when really a 5 or 6 extra tiles over a whole game isn't a big deal)
What about units?
Buying out units using tiles is a total waste of gold. You can often buy the whole unit for the cost of the tile, but if you buy a tile your only adding about 20% of the hammers to the unit.
edit: Other than settlers. I didn't bother to check their cost difference but from experience on the last two speed levels you knock off about 10% to 20% of the settler production. Again, on faster speeds doable. Not so much on the slower.
edit: One thing to consider is that units bought out via tile buying come at full experience. The thing is with America this is usually a non-factor because by the time you have buildings that give game changing experience you have usually "maxed out" your tile cost ballooning.
What about wonders?
For the first couple wonders it does help because traditional wonder buying only gives 25% of the total production while costing the same as an equivalent building.
Summary
American tile buying seems mostly balanced on quick and standard. Still not amazing, considering it's their UA, but alright. Epic it's ok for the first couple buys but tile cost increase quickly takes over. Marathon America gets screwed big time.
I would increase the hammers per tile for Epic from 30 base to 35. I would increase marathon from 40 to 50. I would also consider giving America a +1 gold per city to give them a break with gold management.
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Interesting discovery about game speeds.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
I think this is your core misunderstanding. If this were true, Austria would never win a game. And yet what I actually see in games is that civs with late uniques can actually be quite powerful.
You have literally not even mentioned their UB. Which supports my case: it makes zero sense to argue for America to get more early game buffs. America is modern powerhouse, not a historical one. If they need a buff (and I'm happy for that to happen), buff their building so that their mid-game impact is more relevant.
Not necessarily, I could see myself loosing 1/4th of they way if I played on Deity
But yeah, I agree, C bonus that AI have shouldn't be underestimated on higher difficulties.Thibix Magnus
Warlord
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I don't know how hard it would be to rebalance, but the production side of the UA should be much weaker in early game but have a stronger era scaling. It would be interesting if in some cases the UA encourages to conquer, raze and settle.
The problem is that the UB encourages to build wonders in the capital, and the UA only really benefits the capital in the early game. One way to soften that part is to make UA hammers proportional to the gold used to purchase a tile, so with the era scaling and a strong economy you can choose expensive tile purchases for your capital if you want to snipe late game wonders. The UB tourism bonus could also be smaller but affect all cities, to make USA less capital-centric.
Larger era scaling would be really interesting. Settling a city in the mid game could become a strength for America if they could create huge production in that new city through buying tiles.
It's probably tough to use the tile buying mechanic for production though just because the tile costs scale one way and your production costs scale another and I imagine it's tricky to balance that.
As much as I enjoy seeing how many wonders I can snag in Ancient it sure doesn't feel thematic to do so as America. Using the UA to go really wide and buy tiles in newly settled cities to get those cities up and running faster seems more thematic. I'm just not sure how that would be encouraged more.
It's probably tough to use the tile buying mechanic for production though just because the tile costs scale one way and your production costs scale another and I imagine it's tricky to balance that.
As much as I enjoy seeing how many wonders I can snag in Ancient it sure doesn't feel thematic to do so as America. Using the UA to go really wide and buy tiles in newly settled cities to get those cities up and running faster seems more thematic. I'm just not sure how that would be encouraged more.
This scaling seems super busted and IMO it qualifies as a bug. Why should the buy ratio be 2.8 in quick and 1.8 in marathon?
ElliotS
Warmonger
Could America be exempt from the global tile buying cost increase, so every tile buy only increases costs for that city, and not all others? Could help a lot with later settling and conquests, and reflect real-life rebuilding efforts like Japan.
One annoying thing about America is that he ruins the effectiveness of a Citadel. I used a Great general to grab a tile off him to complete a monopoly, and then a few turns later he grabbed it back off me.
And there is no counterplay to get him to stop purchasing tiles, except going to war with him and taking all his cities.
Is it possible to have America be blocked from purchasing tiles from any tile next to a Citadel, and maybe also fort? It is a slight nerf, but neither of those is immediately available or will be put everywhere, and Citadels are a significant cost and it feels bad to have that ruined.
And there is no counterplay to get him to stop purchasing tiles, except going to war with him and taking all his cities.
Is it possible to have America be blocked from purchasing tiles from any tile next to a Citadel, and maybe also fort? It is a slight nerf, but neither of those is immediately available or will be put everywhere, and Citadels are a significant cost and it feels bad to have that ruined.
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