America

[pineappledan]

Or maybe just do away with the idea of tying them to policy trees? It’s adding the headache of balancing against each other AND an entire tree AND 2 other trees.

 

[Stalker0]

Or maybe just do away with the idea of tying them to policy trees? It’s adding the headache of balancing against each other AND and entire tree.

Yeah just leave it as a tech unlock, and then once you build one it locks the others. That's pretty cool and flexible.

 

[InkAxis]

Don't want to bring up an old argument but I added a while back (for my own purposes) GiveOnlyOnStartingTurn for the give promotions that you could use with GiveCombatMod to give the same GG stacking bonus but only on the starting turn, if you want

 

[pineappledan]

If only there was a GiveZOC and I could use that for the Shophet in 4UC!

That certainly does settle the debate on that part, if we are inclined to keep it

 

[pineappledan]

We couldn’t just scrap west point’s yellow bonus; it wouldn’t stack up against the other options at all because it would be doing less, and not necessarily doing anything else better. Maybe I could just give all siege units splash I?

also, I’m using the free building in all cities to place a dummy, which is the only way to make wonders mutually exclusive right now (otherwise you could just build 2 different wonders in different cities). So, If smithsonian were to really give museums in all cities I would need new code, because buildings can only give 1 free building at a time.

the new proposals require at least 4 new functions, actually

 

[Stalker0]

We couldn’t just scrap west point’s yellow bonus; it wouldn’t stack up against the other options at all because it would be doing less, and not necessarily doing anything else better. Maybe I could just give all siege units splash I?

So if we go with the idea that you just choose what building you want.... West Point becomes more attractive as a "surge" type mechanic. Again, as I mentioned before, the timing is really good. As America I am often producing a big army at this point to make use of my minuteman -> g gun push. Now with West Point, I get 3 full artillery pieces ready to add to that. And.... these +1 g guns I am stamping out, also get an extra ~10 XP on top... so I'm that much closer to also having Indirect Fire as well... completing the ultimate ranged unit. Oh yeah...and I get some science and production on top.

So for the games I am planning the push to "win the game" (aka either go full domination or just snipe my biggest rival), I think this West Point holds up. For a longer term game, the other two wonders are better, but for a "THIS IS IT" type game, this West Point is attractive, and the timing is such that I think many American players would want to go for it at this point. This concept does not work when your tied to trees, but with more flexibility, this is a solid option.

Honestly I think in that context, the yellow bonuses for West Point aren't that important, they really aren't. And since I know you like to preserve design space for the various civs you like to make....I think there's some value onto holding that mechanic for a civ that can really focus on the concept....rather than use it as one small part of a 3 part UB.

 

[Stalker0]

The other thing about west point is it creates a lot of interesting synergies to go along with the "rush". Optimal play would want to focus ETRS in one city, maybe use towns to really get that cities money flowing...the stock exchange becomes a lot more attractive....there is an intesting synergy with thrift....you would definately want to time this with Golden Ages, etc. There's a lot a good American player could in theory do to optimize the city XP to create these ultimate units for that period of time.

 

[Gizmoman]

yeah actually. The Boers beat the British pretty hard because they trained their kommandos to be crack shots. Taking notice that their professional army outnumbered the Boer militia nearly 10 to 1, and still almost lost a war, the British started training their own soldiers in marksmanship.

This was the reason that Britain finally did away with their brightly coloured uniforms as well, turns out that being seen without seeing is a bad strategy.

 

[pineappledan]

K, so I'm gonna take off the policy prereqs

Making new yield converters for West Point is a big threshold to cross, and I don't want this to require that much new code. So, I've implemented the following for now:
Smithonian: 10% to
Hoover Dam: 10% to
West Point: 10% to

West Point now gives Splash 1 to all siege units.

Update posted

 

[Stalker0]

I do think the wonders are getting wordy, there are just tons of nebulous bonuses on them now, a few of them I think are so dinky at this point in the game that I think you could just trim the fat and create a nice tight building. Yes I know many National Wonders have these bonuses but those buildings are usually earlier than one, and also not "special ones". Example:
Smithsonian Institute
1500
Available at Biology
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Culture
+5Science and Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire
FREE Museum in all Cities on Empire

Hoover Dam
1500
Available at Electricity
Mutually exclusive
33 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Production
+5Gold and Production to Factories and Stadiums on Empire
FREE Hydro Plant in this City
+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.

West Point
Available at Replaceable Parts
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Science
5 Science and Production to Military Academies and Military Bases on Empire
3 FREE Iron
3 FREE Artillery Units appear next to this City
Siege units on empire receive the Splash I promotion

 

[AndreyK]

All wonders looks a little OP, but Smithsonian looks so powerful - I think no wonder or even policy or ideology give so much.
Look you get 2s2c per WW, get 10s10c per city, get free museum in ALL cities AND 10% of gold converted to culture, -25% gold for tile purchase!

 

[stii]

I think later wonders have to be pretty over powered to be useful. Getting +10 science on T50 is a lot better than +100 science on T200.

 

[pineappledan]

I do think the wonders are getting wordy, there are just tons of nebulous bonuses on them now, a few of them I think are so dinky at this point in the game that I think you could just trim the fat and create a nice tight building. Yes I know many National Wonders have these bonuses but those buildings are usually earlier than one, and also not "special ones". Example:
Smithsonian Institute
1500
Available at Biology
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Culture
+5Science and Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire
FREE Museum in all Cities on Empire

Hoover Dam
1500
Available at Electricity
Mutually exclusive
33 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Production
+5Gold and Production to Factories and Stadiums on Empire
FREE Hydro Plant in this City
+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.

West Point
Available at Replaceable Parts
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Science
5 Science and Production to Military Academies and Military Bases on Empire
3 FREE Iron
3 FREE Artillery Units appear next to this City
Siege units on empire receive the Splash I promotion

Sure, we can go with that. Smithsonian doesn't need that theming if it's working more as an institute the puts museums everywhere. It's sort of overkill.
The GP points were just flavor, but it might not be worth the clutter, as you say.
I'm keeping the base yields for all of them, and I'm gonna keep the wonder yields for Hoover at 22 for now.
Hoover looks like underdog, niche pick of the 3 still, but I could be wrong. If people still have complaints about hoover, I doubt +1 is the difference maker.

 

[CrazyG]

I can't ever see myself choosing that Hoover Dam over the other two. If you need production you get a lot more from just a free museum everywhere.

 

[pineappledan]

Agreed, Hoover is a bit of an ugly duckling right now...

Maybe I put back that additional 2 on rivers/lakes? Or maybe there is some other bonus that could be added or replace the => converter with that is more powerful

 

[Stalker0]

Agreed, Hoover is a bit of an ugly duckling right now...

Maybe I put back that additional 2 on rivers/lakes? Or maybe there is some other bonus that could be added or replace the => converter with that is more powerful

Might be too much but we could consider a free hydro plant in every city.

 

[pineappledan]

That would be potentially worthless to a few landlocked cities. You'd be forced to sell them if you actually wanted a better power plant in some cities. Plus, thats so much free aluminum. Just seems janky.

 

[Gizmoman]

A modern era wonder giving information era free resource-costing buildings in all cities is pretty insane.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, I think the idea is if 1 wonder is giving a big wide buff like museums everywhere, and another is going military, then there is space for a more 1-city, tall America wonder. Something for a 3-5 city empire.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, I think the idea is if 1 wonder is giving a big wide buff like museums everywhere, and another is going military, then there is space for a more 1-city, tall America wonder. Something for a 3-5 city empire.

Ok, brainstorm time. So if I ignore the Hoover Dam flavor for the moment (aka allow the possibility of another reskin if needed to fit the mechanics).... what do Tall civs usually want/need.

• Supply....often the Achilles heel of Tall play
• Production/Gold: Often in shorter supply
• Defense: Often trying to hold out against the horde and win through CV/SV.
• Votes: Tall civs often don't have the religious and CS pull so tend to have weaker vote counts.
• CS Defense: Very hold to hold onto the CS you have against warmongers
• Trade Protection: Hard to maintain ETRs in the face of threats.

Ok so putting that together, let me give this a whirl

NAFTA
1500
Available at Electricity
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Production
+1 supply and +1 vote for every 2 TRs
TRs can no longer be pillaged.
All allied City States gain +25% CS.
+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.


This gives Tall civs a way to leverage their TRs (which is one of the ways they remain equal to wider civs), it still has an industry bent but not requirement (because of the TR boosts), gives Tall civs some of the things they are generally weakest at....and still maintains some American flavor.