America

[pineappledan]

You could justify a TR boost with Hoover dam. The rim of the dam was part of route 93, a major highway which extends from Arizona to Canada.

NAFTA is too recent, (Canada-US agreement signed in 1987, Mexico added and re-drafted in 1988) and isn’t a self-contained American thing. In fact, NAFTA was initiated by Canada, and it was America that killed it with some orange baboon’s hissy fit over cheese. So... awkward.

 

[Stalker0]

You could justify a TR boost with Hoover dam. The rim of the dam was part of route 93, a major highway which extends from Arizona to Canada.

NAFTA is too recent, (Canada-US agreement signed in 1987, Mexico added and re-drafted in 1988) and isn’t a self-contained American thing. In fact, NAFTA was initiated by Canada, and it was America that killed it with some orange baboon’s hissy fit over cheese. So... awkward.

I felt like the TR flex for Hoover was a bigger stretch than the NAFTA to US thing.... but you care about flavor associations much more than I do, so if you think Hoover works with the TR stuff than I'm for it. I mean at the end of the day a lot of wonders are on

Hoover Dam
1500
Available at Electricity
Mutually exclusive
22 to Every World Wonder on Empire
-25% Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
10% of Gold in all cities is converted to Production
+1 supply and +1 vote for every 2 TRs
TRs can no longer be pillaged.
Free Hydroelectric Plant in City
+25% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Tiles in all cities' contributes to Tourism Output.

 

[Stalker0]

So in looking at these ideas, do they help me "play differently". So clearly America now has a strong gold focus, much more than before. Gold is tiles....and gold is other yields. So there is a new focus off the bat. Cathedrals and Thrift are fun combos with America, stock exchanges are more desirable, big Trade is important. Tenants like Economic Union or Party Leadership have some extra spice with America due to their yield converters.

West Point: Probably the thing this does is make me consider additional artillery with my large G gun force, as the splash damage opens up a niche I don't have at the moment (aka I already have range, but I don't have splash). Certainly also a SV play, where I want to militarily crush the culture people and then go for SV. This to me is the wonder I wouldn't use to "win more", I would use it to "crush and then win".

Hoover gives me a diplomatic push, and lets me focus on TRs in a cool and unique way. Also good for Tall play where I am already "winning" I just need to hold out. You get some fun here with corporations, as the guaranteed ETRs allow for faster franchise building than other civs (TR sniping is very common from the AI at this point in the game). There's an interesting synergy where I might go Industry 1 for the TRs, but focus on rationalism to push towards victory....using TTGOG to cover my GP needs. I let hoover augment my Rationalism production weaknesses and push towards the CV, and rationalism then pushes my science to get the late game CV techs.

Smithsonian: A good wide focus one where I have a lot of basis covered, but I need to accelerate my culture and science to the finish line, and this gives me a nice boost. Probably the "default" building, its just naturally good for every playstyle.

 

[pineappledan]

TR invincibility is probably a bit over the top. If I can find a TR-related boost that is coded, I would prefer one that I can stack with an existing corporation, and not replace. In other words, I wouldn’t want to step on firaxite materials’ toes by just giving their bonus away, but the additional vision or speed given by Civilized and 2Kay would stack with the same bonus given by Hoover.

I’m pretty sure those kinds of bonuses are tied to corporations, however, not the head office/building, so you would probably need new code to get Hoover to work like that.

 

[Stalker0]

TR invincibility is probably a bit over the top.

Well, if we want these NBs to be interesting and unique, we do have to consider pushing a little out of the box. We can pile on yields all day, but if the goal is to make the NBs different enough to actually "play differently" than we need to change the game.

The TR invincibility lets a Tall civ deal with one of its number 1 weaknesses....that late game when they are winning, people just start shutting off all of their ETRs because they have no military to defend them. Adding such a mechanic would give them a very cool and unique power that makes the building worth discussing.

Besides, this hardly gives away Firaxite's benefit. Its not like I would ever go "well darn, I totally wanted to make my TRs invincible....but since my opponent America already has that....I guess I won't pick that one". And if that is one of the corps America gets to choose....well maybe they decide to go Firaxite + another NB....or they go Hoover and pick a different corp. The new building flexibility gives them those options, they are never forced into a scenario where they have to get invincible TRs twice if they don't want them.


Now you did mention TR speed....that could be another interesting benefit. It increases TR tourism (for that CV push), and gets your franchises going faster (which is always fun), so that could be another fun one to use.

 

[pineappledan]

You often don't get much choice of corporations, so an America player might want to pick Hoover, but also be forced to pick Firaxite. In that case, one of his bonuses from these two are redundant. I just think that, if given the choice, there are some bonuses like vision and speed, or some other bonuses we could give to TRs that would overlap, rather than overwrite each other.

 

[pineappledan]

Actually, question for modders:

I’m pretty sure you can put promotions on caravans and cargo ships. So, what would adding movement promotions do to trade units? Would it increase the range of the TRs, the speed they complete, or both?

EDIT: turns out there are TRSpeedBoost and TRVision Boost already as building abilities, copies of the corporation bonuses, but for buildings.

I will add 100% TR speed to Hoover Dam. If that is not enough, I think a good extra bonus would be more Tourism on Trade Route finish, maybe at 1.5x the strength of caravansary/harbor. That would make maximum combined TR Finish Bonus at (10+6+5) + 15 = 36

 

[VampireSeraphin]

One of America's problems is not that its a bad civ, its not, but its pretty bland. Sentry is good, but the land purchasing ability dwindles in usefulness in the late game, even though it lets you get a strong ancient start.

I've got two suggestions that I think would make them more interesting.

1. In the late game, possibly unlocked by one of these wonder's you talking about, production from tile buys is upgraded to "can purchase cities without a declaration of friendship. Cities cost 25% less. This continues to focus on the expansion aspect. It would be powerful and unique, though quite costly. It also reflects the Gadsden, Alaska, and Louisiana purchases.

2. American scout units reveal all strategic resources from the current era when they pass within sight of them. It wouldn't unlock improvements, but it would let America plan cities better than anyone else to take advantage of new resources. You could plan cities, pantheons, and wonders better than other players, which would be cool. It would also reflect the Louis & Clark Expedition as well as the extensive land surveying projects engaged in by the early American government. It would also encourage American scouts to revisit lands that were already scouted, giving scouts expanded usefulness.

 

[pineappledan]

2. American scout units reveal all strategic resources from the current era when they pass within sight of them. It wouldn't unlock improvements, but it would let America plan cities better than anyone else to take advantage of new resources. You could plan cities, pantheons, and wonders better than other players, which would be cool. It would also reflect the Louis & Clark Expedition as well as the extensive land surveying projects engaged in by the early American government. It would also encourage American scouts to revisit lands that were already scouted, giving scouts expanded usefulness.

interesting idea. So in ancient you could see horses and iron, for instance (but not bonus resources like deer, etc.) in ancient, and then in industrial your scouts could see coal even without Steam Power. Sounds interesting.

 

[Stalker0]

Its a neat idea, but I think unfortunately its also a "flash in the pan" idea, its usefulness drops like a stone, which is often what America is already accused on now, having a cool ability that is basically used to rush a few wonders and then doesn't have much impact later in the game.

I think this is a cool ribbon to add to a civ, but its not going to "fix" a civ that people think needs work.

Now for a civ like say...the Shoshone or the Iroquois. I think something like this could be cool.

 

[VampireSeraphin]

Its a neat idea, but I think unfortunately its also a "flash in the pan" idea, its usefulness drops like a stone, which is often what America is already accused on now, having a cool ability that is basically used to rush a few wonders and then doesn't have much impact later in the game.

I think this is a cool ribbon to add to a civ, but its not going to "fix" a civ that people think needs work.

Now for a civ like say...the Shoshone or the Iroquois. I think something like this could be cool.

Dreams of a Better Future: "When you expend a great merchant, musician, diplomat, or prophet in another civs territory, target city loses 1 population, scaling with era. Your nearest city gains population equal to the pop lost by the target city in this way."

UB: Frontier Fort, replaces Walls. Gain Faith or Food from exploring new tiles. Reveals All strategics in a 3 tile radius.

Something along these lines would capture the immigration that has driven america, the expansionist parts of early and mid american history. It would remain useful even until the end of the game, and would be an interesting way to hinder the AI before a war, or slow a science or tourism victory. Forts would encourage players to explore aggressively. Revealing future strategics would reflect the aggressive land surveying carried out by the early american government.

 

[JungleBucks]

Its a neat idea, but I think unfortunately its also a "flash in the pan" idea, its usefulness drops like a stone, which is often what America is already accused on now, having a cool ability that is basically used to rush a few wonders and then doesn't have much impact later in the game.

I think this is a cool ribbon to add to a civ, but its not going to "fix" a civ that people think needs work.

Now for a civ like say...the Shoshone or the Iroquois. I think something like this could be cool.

The gold conversion of each of these buildings seems like a good bonus for the long term, and personally, I'd rather we focus on something additive for America as opposed to something that completely overhauls how the Civ functions. It's already hard enough to agree on changes that get implemented on a Civilization, so the last thing that should be done is effectively starting from scratch and seeing how it works out.
Plus I just really like the idea behind Independence Hall and the branching buildings.

 

[youngsteve]

I think America has good UA & UU. The problem is the Smithsonian which is very lightweight. Playing my latest game with America & had forgotten all about the building until getting the tech, built it, & didn't seem to do much. Now I don't know about others, but I usually beeline UU & UB of other civs to gain their advantages but not The Smithsonian. I think part of the problem it comes late & is the top of the tree to Minutemen bottom, who I would always go for first.

 

[Bruhmoment]

UA's actually not half bad, it's just the other buildings which are just.... eh.
Building's probably from a mod, but please buff the Homestead, it's just a stable that can claim tiles only 3 tiles away. Make it 4

 

[ridjack]

I feel like America is a somewhat conflicted civ, almost internally inconsistent. I know VP civs strive for a degree of flexibility on the whole, but I kinda feel like America's kit misses that mark somewhat. Its disparate parts feel like they work against each other a tiny bit, just enough to make the result feel confused. The name and theme of the UA absolutely screams wide, literally land-grabbing playstyle, with an awesome UU to back it up, but it seems to generally be agreed that America's strength comes from using the UB in a tall, tradition-oriented game. And, to be completely honest, America isn't even a particularly strong Tradition civ when stacked up against any of the others.

I would personally like to see a more concentrated focus on the land and the terrain. The US is obviously known for a lot of things, but one of the most objectively true things about the country is that it has a ton of beautiful, interesting terrain. The UA and UU already have a land-centric element to them; the UA is literally grabbing more land, and the UU ignores terrain cost. Putting some kind of tourism/culture/etc directly on America's tiles would be thematic, play into the wide focus that the rest of the kit aims for and, done correctly, could feel quite unique, I think.

Just my two cents.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I feel like America is a somewhat conflicted civ, almost internally inconsistent. I know VP civs strive for a degree of flexibility on the whole, but I kinda feel like America's kit misses that mark somewhat. Its disparate parts feel like they work against each other a tiny bit, just enough to make the result feel confused. The name and theme of the UA absolutely screams wide, literally land-grabbing playstyle, with an awesome UU to back it up, but it seems to generally be agreed that America's strength comes from using the UB in a tall, tradition-oriented game. And, to be completely honest, America isn't even a particularly strong Tradition civ when stacked up against any of the others.

I would personally like to see a more concentrated focus on the land and the terrain. The US is obviously known for a lot of things, but one of the most objectively true things about the country is that it has a ton of beautiful, interesting terrain. The UA and UU already have a land-centric element to them; the UA is literally grabbing more land, and the UU ignores terrain cost. Putting some kind of tourism/culture/etc directly on America's tiles would be thematic, play into the wide focus that the rest of the kit aims for and, done correctly, could feel quite unique, I think.

Just my two cents.

I always felt America should not be a tall civ, really does not fit the USA.

 

[Bruhmoment]

I always felt America should not be a tall civ, really does not fit the USA.

It ISN'T actually a tall civ, but there's only a one point difference for wide points - 2-1
But yeah, it needs more of a motivation to settle more cities. Maybe a hapiness bonus?

 

[ilikepickles]

I would personally like to see a more concentrated focus on the land and the terrain. The US is obviously known for a lot of things, but one of the most objectively true things about the country is that it has a ton of beautiful, interesting terrain. The UA and UU already have a land-centric element to them; the UA is literally grabbing more land, and the UU ignores terrain cost. Putting some kind of tourism/culture/etc directly on America's tiles would be thematic, play into the wide focus that the rest of the kit aims for and, done correctly, could feel quite unique, I think..

No idea how it would play out in actual gameplay (I fear it could be somewhat similar to vanilla Spain, which would be... not great) but a Natural Wonder culture/tourism bonus would be really thematic for the USA. There's plenty national parks in the nation and most are massive tourist attractions. It would also have synergy with the UA's land grabbing abilities (specially for stealing other civ's natural wonders), and would incentivize a more wide playstyle.

Again, not sure how you would fit in into the civ (I feel as though the UA is already complete enough, maybe as a UB that represents the National Park Service?). Would like to hear some more thoughts about how to make America better for wide, Progress/Authority play.

 

[myeong1129]

Is it intended that West Point only provide Splash promotion to Siege units btw? From the text I read all land units, but in-game I only find Siege units to have a promotion.

 

[pineappledan]

Intended, yes

Text Will be fixed in next version