American Universities will now be all white and Asian

[Zkribbler]

Most diplomas in US are not worth their tuition.

The US has the top 4 universities in the world...12 of the world's top 25.
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2019

 

[Dachs]

The US has the top 4 universities in the world...12 of the world's top 25.
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2019

Most universities in the US - which has hundreds - are not the twelve in the top twenty-five, though.

I kind of agree with plarq. Undergraduate education can be of basically equivalent quality in the US regardless of the institution you attend. Put in the effort, and you can learn the same things from a community college course that you could from a highly ranked school. But it's also entirely possible to coast through your classes, get your gentleman's C, and graduate with effectively no knowledge or skill related to your major.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The US has the top 4 universities in the world...12 of the world's top 25.
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2019

The US education system is fantastic at creating a handful of really elite universities, while the rest kind of are all of low standard.
This is pretty much why the US is graduating so few scientist, engineers and doctors but produce some of the worlds best.

China on the other hand is going the opposite direction which is cranking out something like 10 times the number of engineers, and has an overall lower standard of education but is more accessible and affordable
Time will tell which system is better.

 

[Zkribbler]

I see a lot of arguments, but I see no links nor other supporting evidence.

 

[Dachs]

I see a lot of arguments, but I see no links nor other supporting evidence.

bro you are the one who brought in topuniversities.com, which is not even a reputable university ranking website

suddenly deciding to take the topic seriously after that kind of heavy truth bomb is definitely undeserving of a smiley

 

[Zkribbler]

topuniversities.com, which is not even a reputable university ranking website

Cite to any one you please.

Any BTW: You guys are saying degrees from the US are worthless. Again I ask: Do you have any supporting evidence?

 

[Ferocitus]

Cite to any one you please.

Any BTW: You guys are saying degrees from the US are worthless. Again I ask: Do you have any supporting evidence?

Yes, I'd like to know what that is based on too.
There's a huge difference between MIT and those where you can buy a PhD
(and a rabbinihood thrown in for an extra $25).

 

[Dachs]

Cite to any one you please.

Any BTW: You guys are saying degrees from the US are worthless. Again I ask: Do you have any supporting evidence?

That's not what plarq posted. "Not worth their tuition" is not the same thing as "worthless".

It's a judgment call based on the high cost of undergraduate degrees in time (opportunity cost) and money (potentially including student loans). It's based on the relevance of one's degree to one's eventual employment, on the quality of the education one receives from one's university schooling, and on the viability of alternative options. In my case, it's also based on personal experience in the teaching profession in America.

Frankly, you'll have to post something better thought-through than the first website on the search results, and you'll have to do better than misrepresenting what other people post, in order to be likely to get anything else out of other people.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The US dose have some of finest universities, with best teachers and amazing graduates why do you think Chinese have been pouring in and paying a premium to get into the best universities ?
At the same time you have a situation where college level education is out of reach for many due to cost. In the past education was more affordable

Anyway in comparison to China, which is investing its money into education, infrastructure and research to catch up to the US. The US have been slashing education, infrastructure and research

 

[Hrothbern]

The US dose have some of finest universities, with best teachers and amazing graduates why do you think Chinese have been pouring in and paying a premium to get into the best universities ?
At the same time you have a situation where college level education is out of reach for many due to cost. In the past education was more affordable

Anyway in comparison to China, which is investing its money into education, infrastructure and research to catch up to the US. The US have been slashing education, infrastructure and research

Adding to that:

China has a clear focus on using higher education to generate engineers and (hard) scientists.

Aiming for techs and fast track industrialisation of them at high maturity.

 

[plarq]

The Chinese higher education "great leap" also produced many low quality new campuses, and a declining quality control in education. Unlike GDP, education is more labor-intensive.
Also, while Chinese higher education tuition is low, the job pay is also poor. That is why I moved to greener pastures in US. Good thing is that I never worried about US tuition.

 

[plarq]

Cite to any one you please.

Any BTW: You guys are saying degrees from the US are worthless. Again I ask: Do you have any supporting evidence?

https://www.marketwatch.com/graphics/college-debt-now-and-then/

Tuition runs faster than inflation and wages, MUCH faster.

The US education system is fantastic at creating a handful of really elite universities, while the rest kind of are all of low standard.
This is pretty much why the US is graduating so few scientist, engineers and doctors but produce some of the worlds best.

China on the other hand is going the opposite direction which is cranking out something like 10 times the number of engineers, and has an overall lower standard of education but is more accessible and affordable
Time will tell which system is better.

You forgot grad school. Many grad schools do not have high prestige comparing to the Ivy League, but they have solid research programs. Similar to the hidden champions in business.

 

[luiz]

Why Asians are so over-represented in top US universities, and whites somewhat under-represented? Legacy of Asian Supremacy?

 

[Zkribbler]

https://www.marketwatch.com/graphics/college-debt-now-and-then/

Tuition runs faster than inflation and wages, MUCH faster.

No argument from me here.

However the question is if someone with a college degree will make, during their ~ 40 years of employment. more than someone with just a high school diploma.
The cited-to article sets out a cost of an undergraduate degree as $103,616.
Spreading that out over 40 years gives ~ $2,500/year or $200/month.
Thus, if a college grad can make just $200 more per month than he would with just a HS diploma, the undergraduate degree will more than pay for itself.

Plus, breadth requirements will give a person a rudimentary knowledge in subjects like history, art, philosophy, astronomy, chemistry, literature, etc., by which a richer life can be obtained.

Finally, democracy depends upon an educated electorate.

 

[Lexicus]

However the question is if someone with a college degree will make, during their ~ 40 years of employment. more than someone with just a high school diploma.

No. That's not the question. The question is whether they will make enough more to offset the likely cost of that college degree, which may include student loans that the person may spend decades paying off.

Finally, democracy depends upon an educated electorate.

The solution is to reduce the cost of a college education.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The solution is to reduce the cost of a college education.

We should reduce the cost and make the state pay for all of it. We're long past the inflection point between college being purely a luxury for the rich to it being a basic necessity to climb most corporate ladders. It should therefore be freely available to everyone who wants to go up to the point where they flunk out.

 

[Lexicus]

We should reduce the cost and make the state pay for all of it. We're long past the inflection point between college being purely a luxury for the rich to it being a basic necessity to climb most corporate ladders. It should therefore be freely available to everyone who wants to go up to the point where they flunk out.

Well, I'm not sure about reducing the costs when you put it this way. Undoubtedly there is administrative bloat that doesn't need to exist, but it is true that if you went well-treated professors and whatnot it's going to cost. The problem is that, as you say, the government should mostly be paying the bill, not the student.

The other problem of course is that people without college degrees need to be able to make a living too.

 

[plarq]

No argument from me here.

However the question is if someone with a college degree will make, during their ~ 40 years of employment. more than someone with just a high school diploma.
The cited-to article sets out a cost of an undergraduate degree as $103,616.
Spreading that out over 40 years gives ~ $2,500/year or $200/month.
Thus, if a college grad can make just $200 more per month than he would with just a HS diploma, the undergraduate degree will more than pay for itself.

Plus, breadth requirements will give a person a rudimentary knowledge in subjects like history, art, philosophy, astronomy, chemistry, literature, etc., by which a richer life can be obtained.

Finally, democracy depends upon an educated electorate.

You forgot interest rate.

The other problem of course is that people without college degrees need to be able to make a living too.

They do. Since the tuition+loan interest exceeds benefits.

Why Asians are so over-represented in top US universities, and whites somewhat under-represented? Legacy of Asian Supremacy?

As I said before, selective competitions. Also Chinese and Indian immigrants are basically graduate students who came to US to study and then work in high tech industry or academia. These people are highly educated and believe education is part of American dream. Also they are richer than average Americans.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well, I'm not sure about reducing the costs when you put it this way. Undoubtedly there is administrative bloat that doesn't need to exist, but it is true that if you went well-treated professors and whatnot it's going to cost. The problem is that, as you say, the government should mostly be paying the bill, not the student.

The other problem of course is that people without college degrees need to be able to make a living too.

I was listening to Fresh Air on NPR about college costs and there is an outright majority of professors who are essentially contingent labor (short-term, low paid adjuncts) that make borderline minimum wage at best. Fully tenured professors haven't seen their wages rise much either meanwhile administrative costs have exploded and investor take from private colleges has also grown enormously.

The industry has turned-for profit and thus the usual profit motives of the owner-class benefiting at the expense of everyone else has taken hold. Even public universities have begun to act in ways more associated with private schools as they too have a huge administrative bloat.

What I'm getting at is essentially we have the same kinds of problems in education that we have in healthcare. Clearly other countries are getting good results while spending far less per capita. Major reforms are in order - Obama started down that path but was not aggressive enough (though as with many things in the Obama era, there was only so much that could be done with Teahadist traitors running congress).



And yes, I am all for living wages for unskilled labor and a resurgence of technical/vocational schools as well. I'm more an 'all of the above' guy with education rather than either/or.

You forgot interest rate.

That $100,000 bill for school certainly includes interest. The average student loan debt (without interest) is about $20-30,000 in the US, IIRC. $100,000 is such a high number it has to include interest.

 

[Cheetah]

We should reduce the cost and make the state pay for all of it. We're long past the inflection point between college being purely a luxury for the rich to it being a basic necessity to climb most corporate ladders. It should therefore be freely available to everyone who wants to go up to the point where they flunk out.

Look to Norway.

No, seriously. Education is free, even for foreigners. We have pretty good arrangements for vocational training too: Instead of regular high school (which is three years, ages 16 to 18) one does a Vocational high school, with two years school, and then two years apprenticeship combined with school.