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An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by consentient, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    General principles

    TLDR: To my knowledge, there have been a number of Tier lists made over the years, but in my opinion they fail in undervaluing conquest as a game mechanic, they consider maps types that are not so often played at Deity, and they compare civs against each other, rather than to some objective standard.

    My view is that if we want to construct something like an objective tier list for Deity SP civs, we must first imagine a completely neutral civ with no UA, UU or UB, and then compare how much better each civ is to this imaginary civ.

    Direct comparisons cannot really work. If we have a feeling that Venice is better than Austria, for example, we must actually consider how much better each one is than the neutral civ. I will hereafter call this civ The Neutrals, for the sake of simplicity. I hope this does not offend some punk band out there that likely have the same name. Our Tier list analysis therefore must weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of each civ against the Neutrals.

    But I think we must also consider what general strategies are most likely to win, and then compare how much easily those strategies can be won with each civ, not rank them according to how easy it is to win with the civ in a set of decent conditions. For example, Brazil are fantastic at CV, but if the arrangement of the map and some of the game consequences don’t go your way, you might struggle getting that CV and have to change VC, in order to win.

    I would say that there are only really five kinds of advantages that a civ can have over The Neutrals on Deity:-

    Science: the advantage somehow boosts research, allowing key techs to be reached faster, catching you up to the AI faster, and extending the dominance you enjoy once you’ve overtaken them. These advantages are more important on Deity than on Prince, for example, where you can win really easily and quickly without even building libraries.

    Culture: advantages that allow for the quicker enacting of social policies mean that the powerful meta-advantages they bring will similarly snowball.

    Gold: advantages that grant more gold mean the choices about what to build/rush buy are less severe, and every VC is made significantly easier by making CS alliances slicker

    War: advantages that make it easier to kill enemy units and capture their cities is important regardless of whether or not you are on the offensive or defensive.

    Faith: faith is really a meta-value since it can be turned into science, gold, culture, and even units. It doesn’t really provide any benefit in and of itself. All the same, it will be considered separately since some civs have large advantages to faith, and some none at all.

    As for what we are actually rating, adwcta said it best in the OP of his thread:

    I totally agree. This is about ease of winning, not speed of winning, or versatility of VCs. Korea, for example, are not just 'a science civ', since their UA means that by the Industrial Era you can have a good enough tech lead to win by Domination very easily.

    And here’s where I make the statement that many of you will find controversial, which is this: -

    The above criterion basically means that, since warmongering gives the greatest advantages to a civ looking to win, then warmongering advantages count more than others.

    I’m not really looking to debate this point here, and should anyone completely disagree with me, then I’d prefer they start their own thread, respectfully. This thread is for discussion of the tier rankings once this fact has been admitted/accepted.

    The basic reasoning is this: the more capitals your empire conquers, the more all other advantages begin to snowball. For demonstration purposes, take a look at my screenshot from a recent game and especially at the BPT, CPT etc.



    Without having to give any consideration to growth in my 3 self-founded cities, without premium dirt, without founding my own religion, without food caravans, without trying hard to make CS alliances, without building any wonders myself, etc., etc., by T150 I usually become the dominant force in the game purely through conquest, taking the hard work the other civs have done in establishing religion, building nice cities and wonders inside them, and just using it for my purposes; just like most empires.

    And it must be said that I’m a pretty sloppy warmonger. If you really apply yourself you can do a lot better than I can, finish earlier, and be more dominant. You can also take some cities, expand your empire and have more confidence that you can win another type of VC. I did this on DCL #4, a map that most turtlers struggled with. I smashed the AI then won a CV, purely for fun. If you’re the type of player that tries to win turtling victories and undergoes stress wondering if you’ll be invaded, since you’ve concentrated so hard on science that you only have 3 XBs and a Pike, then this tier list is probably not for you right now, but maybe in the future you would enjoy learning a bit about war and how it can help you immensely.

    The conclusion: how science, culture, gold, war and faith enable war mongering is the truest measure of how good a civilization is. Since 4 other VCs exist that aren’t directly brought about by Domination, they will not be completely discounted, but the previous popular Deity tier list was heavily skewed in favour of turtling and this doesn’t make any sense.

    But how to weight the factors? Gold can be converted into culture – for example, by buying an Opera House. And culture can be turned into gold, for example by the Commerce opener.

    I think its pretty clear that, given my opening premises about war and conquest, that conquest and science must be considered the twin imperators of how a game goes. On Deity, basically you have to either drive science or conquer cities, and increase your power that way. A combination of both is most effective – i.e. easiest. You do this by reaching the techs you need to finish the game, as fast as you can, without compromising earlier warfare, which also makes things easier by bringing about more power and science much earlier. Starting warring at artillery will not give you Sistine Chapel on T120 without having to build it.

    Tech-ing means that you unlock techs to build things that increase your culture, but so does capturing cities. The most important thing for Deity domination is keeping your army cutting-edge while making sure your cities are producing enough science, which is one reason I love Peddroelm’s 3-city Honor-Commerce-Autocracy strategy so much. You build universities in good time, and work them until you have the techs you need to win. You have much more gold than you would have had from Tradition or Liberty, and a much better army. The advantages you think you’re losing out on – for example culture and GP production - can be seized when you capture other cities. I finish almost every game without building amphitheaters, the national epic, guilds or public schools. And I do it far more easily than I am able to score a science victory where I turtle and put myself at the mercy of the AI, even when I play with bribes. And I usually finish way before most players are winning their turtling victories, since the last tech I generally need is Navigation, Dynamite or something like that, whereas one usually has to reach The Internet (for CV), or, for SV, the whole tree.

    So, in summary, this is not a tier list just for DomVs only, but it does acknowledge, more than any other Tier list I’ve seen, that conquest is more powerful and more flexible than turtling-biased lists give it credit for.

    (to be contd.)
     
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  2. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    OK, so onto the Tier List itself: -

    -Firstly, let’s remind ourselves that we are measuring EASE OF WINNING.

    -Secondly, I’m ranking civs according to ease of winning on Pangaea, Continents and Fractal, since a) they are similar in that they all contain big pieces of land in bigger areas of water, and b) are by far the most played map types. adwtca included Small Continents and Archipelago, I believe, but they are far less played by the Deity players on this site, so they are not included here.

    -Thirdly, I decided that 5 tiers are all that are needed. Each tier is higher than the Neutrals, but by increments. Those in the lowest tiers have advantages that would be barely perceptible if the Neutrals played the same game as the ranked civ. Think about the Iroquois for a second. They have a bit of production in the midgame, but apart from that their advantages are minimal. The top tiers are so powerful by comparison that you have to say they make it almost like playing on Immortal. So consider Poland, who can have an entire tree worth of social policies, and can open Rationalism the turn they reach the Renaissance, should they want to. These advantages are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum

    I like the number five because it’s easy. There are two extremes, a middle, and two moderate spots.

    So here are the Tiers...

    - - -

    Tier 1 (‘God-tier’)

    These civs have advantages so much greater than the Neutrals that playing as one of these civs means it is so much easier to win that you may as well be playing on a different difficulty level. Deity players should think about what it’s like to play on Immortal for example. These civs have that effect in comparison with the Neutrals. The difference is vast. They are gods, by comparison.

    Tier 2 (‘Upper Tier’)

    These civs have advantages that make the game very easy compared with playing as the Neutrals, and their advantages are not limited to a single era, so play is easier throughout.

    Tier 3 (‘Middle Tier’)

    These civs are not average compared to the Neutrals, but they are average in terms of their advantages. They make play easier, but not so much that one is that much more likely to win. Their advantages leverage game mechanics but don’t go beyond that. Or they have disadvantages which somewhat negate better advantages. Or their advantages are concentrated to a single era.

    Tier 4 (‘Lower Tier’)

    These civs have small advantages that make the game noticeably easier than if you played as the Neutrals, but these advantages are marginal, or situational. They probably exist only on certain types of terrain, or in a single era.

    Tier 5 (‘Bottom Tier’)

    These civs have almost no relevant advantages at all, or have actual disabilities in some situations.
     
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  3. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    [15/03/15 - Update: America & Mongolia moved up to 2nd; The Aztecs moved down to 3rd; Austria moved up to 4th; India down to 5th]
    [22/06/15 - Update: Songhai up to 2rd]

    1st Tier ('God tier') - These civs have advantages that make play so much easier to win that you may as well be playing on a different difficulty level

    Poland
    Korea
    Babylon
    The Maya
    Arabia
    Persia

    2nd Tier ('Upper Tier') - These civs have advantages that make the game significantly easier


    The Zulu
    The Huns
    The Inca
    Greece
    England
    Songhai
    America
    Mongolia
    Germany
    Sweden
    China


    3rd Tier ('Middle Tier') – These are good civilizations with advantages that can make the game easier to win compared with a game without any advantages

    Spain
    Songhai - [Having played with them on the recent DCL, I think that the triple gold on city capture is a huge boost. They move up.]
    The Aztecs
    Brazil
    Russia
    The Shoshone
    Denmark
    Egypt
    Siam
    Polynesia
    The Netherlands
    The Celts
    Ethiopia

    4th Tier ('Lower Tier') - These civs are not very good because they have advantages that are, overall, incongruent with or underpowered on Deity

    Japan
    Morocco
    Rome
    Ottoman
    Austria
    Assyria

    5th Tier - These civs have almost no relevant advantages at all, or have actual disabilities in some situations

    India
    Byzantium
    Iroquois
    Venice
    Indonesia
    France
    Portugal
    Carthage

    A note about the ratings system

    -All UUs are compared with the Neutrals equivalent, and how much better or worse the UU is, is a direct function of that. All UUs are therefore rated on a normal scale of 0-5, with a few that are not as good as the ones the Neutrals have, therefore earning negative ratings.

    -All UIs are compared with having farms/mines/trading posts. With the exception of Brazilwood Camps and Terrace Farms, most UIs are worthless, as I explain.

    -All UBs are compared with the Neutrals equivalents, and how much better or worse the UB is, is a direct function of that. All UBs are therefore rated on a normal scale of 0-5, with a few that are not as good as the ones the Neutrals have, therefore earning negative ratings.

    -Most UAs are rated on a scale of 0-5, with 5 indicating a game mechanic which is very, very strong. But there are a few exceptions to this, since the scale of what is possible with these exceptional UAs goes beyond a '5' by an order of magnitude. These are explained individually. Should readers object to this state of exception, perhaps they could consider how to measure just how the UA compares with its absence (for the Neutrals) and how, in turn, these measurements can be placed on a common, non-logarithmic scale with no break in continuity. My system may not be mathematically perfect, but it's the best I can manage. I welcome any suggestions for improvement.
     
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  4. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Original list found here.

    - - -

    No arguments here. I must say that I don’t think this list is all bad because it has identified 4 of the strongest 6 or 7 civs.

    Ethiopia, The Celts, Shoshone, Siam and Austria do not belong on this tier. Since the patch, getting a religion is even harder on Deity and using the Celts UA and Ethiopia's UB, is simply not gonna get you there on its own, most of the time. You NEED a faith pantheon, and The Celts start bias actually puts them away from most dirt types that will have faith resources. Ethiopia has kinda neutral starts, but given its inflexibility as far as the number of cities goes, I'd move it down at least one tier. Wide play with Ethiopia is self-defeating. Austria is really bad, in my view. People rave about how the marriage can give you an army. But I bet I can build a better army in the same time period it takes to ally a CS with a decent army and marry it. Plus the CS will be founded in a sub-optimal spot, and will have pursued a sub-optimal BO. Siam aren’t too bad, but not 2nd tier. Their UA gives you commodities only once you have CS alliances, but doesn’t help you get them. Their UB and UU are completely meh.

    Shoshone are capable of good starts but their advantages are pretty irrelevant post T100. I’d move them down a tier.

    Arabia and Inca are completely awesome, and I'd move them up to the top tier. Arabia's UU is one of the best for pangaea Dom, their UA is the best for pangaea diplo and CV, and although all of these are not quite so good at Continents maps, I think the same is true of all the god tier civs.

    England are amazing, and I'd put them in the top drawer of the 2nd tier. China have one of the best UUs. Brazil are broken for CV provided you can get an OK start. Egypt are not bad, but I'm not sure they shine enough for 2nd tier. Their chariot UU is dependent on flat open terrain and their UA is heavily nerfed by the headstart AIs get on Deity. It only really means that you can build later wonders more quickly. Venice, Rome and Morocco are completely mediocre, AFAIC.


    Aztec and Russia are better than this tier. Russia’s production boost is great for DomV. The rest I agree are mediocre.

    Germany need to go up. Their ability to build an army and pay far less for it is great when pursuing any VC. Players who complain that the AI clears all the barb camps on Deity aren’t playing right.

    Greece and Sweden should both go up by 2 tiers IMO. Their UA is fantastic whether at war or at peace.
    Zulu and Huns are great warmongers and therefore need to go up significantly.

    America need to go up at least two tiers. They are fantastic warmongers. The rest are crap.

    Denmark are much better than people give them credit for, and have a very good UU. No argument about the others.
     
  5. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    [this post reserved for detailed analysis of each civ in Tier 1]

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Poland

    Poland's advantages are: Free social policies, Winged Hussars, and Ducal stables.

    1. Free social policies. This is one of the most powerful UAs there are. It cannot be rated out of 5. Brazil's UA is 5/5 because it makes the game a lot easier to win given the VC it was designed for, at a very special time: the Deity CV endgame. You get the required techs, the GW and then hit a Golden Age and everything goes off nicely. The Polish UA, however, is throughout the whole game, and is so flexible as to make any VC so much easier it's untrue. It also encourages beelining. Want to hit Industrialisation so you can setup Autocracy and get Mobilisation? You can. Want to hit Theology to get a headstart on some kind of Piety game with a powerful religion? You can. Over the course of the eras it amounts to an entire extra tree. That's a colossal advantage. If the Neutrals just took this UA, they would be better than any other civ on this list with the possible exception of one or two that are also god-tier. And even then, those other choices would only be better than the Neutrals with Solidarity if they were pursuing a specific VC on a specific map. Poland are god tier because of this UA. The other advantages are negligible. UA rating = 15


    2. Winged hussars. Lancers are a bit crap, but knocking enemy units backwards is pretty useful in certain situations. Plus they're 10% stronger, and have Shock 1. UU rating = 1/5.

    3. Ducal stables. If they have plenty of animals in your 3-ring, then the Neutrals will build stables. By building this, they would have a bit of extra gold, and some XP. UB rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 17

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Korea

    Korea's advantages are: Tech boosts, Specialists bonus, Hwacha and Turtle Ships

    1. Tech boosts. After building a library, uni, public school, lab, NC, (maybe an Observatory), and Oxford University in Seoul, you will get a tech boost. That's the equivalent of up to 7 free RAs, pretty much (If anyone has the exact math, I'd love it! And we should have Korea on the DCL in the future, too! Yay! :) ) This is massive. UA rating = 6

    2. Specialists bonus. Even more massive. I wish I was a mathematical type so I could give an expression of how broken this is, how much easier the Neutrals would win with this UA. Put it this way, SVs aren't exactly my specialty but when I played with Korea yesterday as a test, it felt like Emperor. I rate it at 9, pending the precise math.

    Both Hwacha and Turtle Ships are not as good as what the Neutrals have, but when are you ever going to build them anyway? UUs rating = 0

    Civ rating = 15

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Babylon

    Babylon's advantages are: Bowmen, Walls, Free GS, GS spawn bonus.

    1. Bowmen. 40% tougher. Almost 30% better at shooting. Huge bonuses for such an early unit. UU rating = 3/5.

    2. Walls. Doubles the strength of the city. This is good if you need to fend off an early attack. UB rating = 2/5.

    3. Free GS. Since getting to Writing in short order is de rigeur for most Deity players, getting a free Academy when you reach it is kinda broken. This represents at the very least a 30% boost to your beaker output at the time, and usually a lot more than that. Sometimes it's doubled. This means that reaching Civil Service, Education, etc. are all achieved considerably faster. This sets you up for the whole game, and makes it much, much easier. UA rating = 5/5.

    4. GS spawn bonus. This compounds the bonus that started at Writing. From now until the end of the game you will get a couple more GS than you ordinarily would, which will enable you to hit key techs much faster. UA rating = 5/5

    Civ rating = 15

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Maya

    The Maya's advantages are: Free GP, Atlatist, Pyramid.

    1. Free GP. You will get, throughout the game, several free GP. Most of these are pretty useful. Even GM can probably buy you a CS. GAdm can be used to meet everyone super-early on Continents games. GS and GE are probably the most-sought after, but a well-timed GA or GW can be just as powerful sometimes. This UA is incredible. UA rating = 7

    2. Atlatist. T8 (or earlier with a ruin) is huge. Don't underestimate the effect of getting stuck into barb camps early, completing quests, collecting XP, etc. UU rating = 3/5.

    3. Pyramid. Double the faith output of the lowly shrine of the Neutrals, and +2 science. When you have a 4 city empire at T55 with Pyramids this is like having the free Academy that Babylon get. Plus you're much more likely to get a religion than the Neutrals. UB rating = 5/5.

    Civ rating = 15

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Arabia

    Arabia's advantages are: Camel Archers, Bazaars, Caravan range, Religion bonus, Double Oil

    1. Camel Archers. While they are only slightly tougher than Keshiks, their attacks are more than 30% stronger, and they have no terrain penalties. How much 1 less movement and no quick study and GG bonuses makes up for this is hard to compute, but in my games I find that I capture cities far more quickly with CAs than with Keshiks. UU rating = 5/5.

    2. Bazaars. Doubling the amount of luxes that you have is so powerful. Swap the extras for gold or other unique luxes and vastly increase your wealth, happiness and friendships. UB rating = 4/5

    3. Caravan range. Helps increase the number of cities that you can trade with, which might increase the GPT, and will help you spread the religion as per 4. UA rating = 1/5

    4. Religion bonus = This is more powerful than people think IMO. You'll have a good shot at a religion if you nab DF (quite a decent proportion of the time) and spreading your religion faster is something that subtly increases whichever bonuses your religion conveys. For peaceful CV this is really useful for getting that much-sought-after Shared Religion bonus, and the AIs will love the caravans you send them. UA rating = 2/5.

    5. Double oil. Besides more gold, this means that you can use more oil-based units should you need/wish to. A decent boost. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 15 (+2 for Desert bias)

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Persia

    Persia's advantages are: Longer Golden Ages, Extra movement, Satrap's Courts, and Immortals

    1. Longer Golden Ages. Even without extra bonuses, this means that, provided you keep happiness at maximum, and with clever use of Great Artists, you will enjoy huge benefits. The Louvre, Taj Mahal and LToP all help immensely, and are all get-able on Deity. With CI and/or Universal Suffrage, this goes out of control. The extra culture, hammers and gold you will make in these periods, even with the gaps, will add up across the whole game to a huge amount. UA rating = 7

    2. Extra movement. How effective this UA becomes is only contingent on how long you can stretch those GAs out. But in an average game, you will enjoy at least a few of these, and if they are only 10 turns long, it means that for at least 10% of the game your units have +1 movement (assuming a sub-T300 finish, not unreasonable). But this 10% could very easily be 50-60% or more, and if you want to push the military, then this mobility factor truly crushes the AI, who is already out-manoeuvred. I've played DomV as Persia and creamed the opposition, and have seen the benefit even when going peaceful, like I did in DCL #3. Workers with 1 extra move get the job done quicker. Prophets get to where they're needed to prophesise a lot quicker too. UA rating = 4/5.

    3. Satrap's Courts. +1 gold and +2 happiness per city is very nice whether you go Tall or Wide, Peaceful or Warring. UB rating = 2/5

    4. Immortals. Spearmen that heal at double-rate deserve a rating of 2/5, and it would be 5/5 if, like Impis, they upgraded to Riflemen.

    Civ rating = 15
     
  6. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    These civs have ratings from 10 (minimum) to 15 (maximum)

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Zulu

    The Zulu's advantages are: Impi, Ikanda, Melee unit maintenance, and Faster promotions

    1. Impi. Everyone should know how strong they are. They brutalise the mid game. It is by no mistake that the fastest DomV times on the DCL were with the Zulu. Once Impi are online there is very little that can stand in their way. Should be no argument here. UU rating = 5/5.

    2. Ikanda. Unique promotions are nice. They're even kept on upgrade, though you can't give them to Industrial and later units. But the Impi upgrades to a Rifleman. Riflemen with extra cover and extra movement and terrain bonuses are formidable. Who cares if they lose the Spear Throw? A strong UB with excellent synergy with the UU. Rating = 3/5

    3. Unit maintenance. Since your strategy is going to be based around conquest in the mid game, this UA means that at the time you're pumping out Impi, you will have to pay much less for them. For example, on Turn 100 if you have 16 Impis (a moderate amount) you will save 11 gold per turn. Sizeable. If you don't win in the mid game and have to turn them into Riflemen, on T200 you will save 20 GPT. Boss. UA rating = 4/5

    4. Faster promotions. It's 25%, so that's quite something. Combined with the unique promotions the units are 'born' with, and the likelihood of Honor, etc., it's very nice indeed. UA rating = 2/5

    Civ rating = 14

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Inca

    The Inca's advantages are: Terrace farms, Slingers, Improvement maintenance cost, Movement in hills

    1. Terrace farms. These allow quite extraordinary growth. A little situational, but will always generate more food than the Neutrals have with the same start. UI rating = 3/5

    2. Slingers. Archers that withdraw from enemy attacks? Yes please. UU rating = 3/5.

    3. Improvement maintenance cost. A huge saving over the course of a game. UA rating = 4/5.

    4. Movement in hills. As it's for all units, it means that Workers will improve the land faster, and troops have a huge advantage whether you are on the attack or in defence. UA rating = 3/5.

    Civ rating = 13



    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Huns

    The Huns advantages are: Horse Archers, Battering Rams, Pasture bonus, Faster razing, Borrowed names, and Free AH

    1. Horse Archers. So much better than CAs it is untrue. For one thing, they don't need horses (despite the name), so you can get them early and make as many as your city supply can support. They start with a promotion. They are available sooner, since the Neutrals have free AH. They don't have terrain penalties. And since you've gone Honor (you did, right?) they get to Logistics in no time and can run away after having shot. And later, Range and March. Anyone who levels a criticism at the HA unit doesn't know how to use them properly. They are really, really brokenly strong. UU rating = 5/5

    2. Rams. Also great. Not so broken because their period of dominance is shorter, but they have a better upgrade path since they can keep all useful promotions like Cover. They work really well in combination with HAs, and are so broken if you get one from a ruin. UU rating = 4/5.

    3. Pasture bonus. Early production is really strong. UA rating = 3/5.

    4. Faster razing. Keeps unhappiness under control a bit better. UA rating = 1/5.

    5. Borrowed names. It does have some use on lower difficulty levels where knowing who else is in the game before you meet them could be an advantage (though I'm not sure what 'roleplaying' idea could justify it: the idea of barbarian warriors naming their own cities after ones belonging to people they haven't even raped and pillaged yet is kinda weird), but on Deity, if as Attila you build settlers, you are doing it wrong. UA rating = 0


    [I haven't included Free AH as a separate UA because it's effect just contributes directly towards the pastures and, more importantly, early HAs. It's not like you're gonna be building caravans early, is it? :D]

    Civ rating = 13

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    Greece

    Greece's advantages are: CS influence, Hoplites, Companion Cavalry and Foreign territory bonus

    1. CS influence. If you play as Alex, once you have the CS it's really hard to lose it. This represents so much culture, food, faith and happiness, and so many gifted units during the course of the game that it's one of the few UAs that needs more than 5 points. It isn't some accident that Alex can dominate so many games as a Deity AI, and it IS a terrible accident IMO that he flounders in the lower-mid tier of the other Tier list. I give this UA 8 points.

    2. Hoplites. A wee bit stronger. You've seen 300, right? :D UU rating = 1/5

    3. Companion cavalry. More than a wee bit stronger. Faster, stronger and Great Generals 1. UU rating = 2/5.

    4. Foreign territory bonus. This is not advertised on the leader page, but, as it says on the Wiki,

    Now that is purdy cool. UA rating = 1/5

    Civ rating = 12

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    England

    England's advantages are: Extra spy, Longbowman, Ships of the Line, and Extra naval movement

    1. Extra spy. Not to be underestimated. When you're trying to catch up, you can steal techs twice as fast. When you're ahead, you can catch twice as many enemy spies. When you're trying to win DiploV that one extra diplomat can be game-winning. UA rating = 4/5

    2. Longbowman. Having range means the usual problem with XBs - that of having to sometimes absorb damage from the city/unit in the city and withdraw to heal - is eliminated. The AI never gets promotions all the way to range, and if you're playing as England they can't be. If you get to Machinery in good time you can conquer for 50 turns without much chance of being stopped. UU rating = 4/5

    3. SotL. A frigate which is 25% better at dealing damage and 20% stronger is a good, good thing. Also has extra sight. Very strong. UU rating 3/5.

    4. Extra movement. Nice, but not game-changing. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 12


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    Songhai

    The Songhai's advantages are: Extra gold from barb camps, Extra gold from city capture, Amphibious promotions, Mandelaku Cavalry and Mud mosques.

    1. Extra gold from barb camps. Not bad. This gold comes at a time when it can help you rush a library or settler or purchase tiles, etc. UA rating 1/5

    2. Extra gold from city capture. Fantastic. Can help buy courthouses, and with CS alliances mid-conquest, and lots of other things that a warmonger has to consider. I abused the bejeezus of out this on the DCL. UA rating 4/5.

    3. Amphibious promotions. I just found out that this negates the penalty of attacking across rivers. This, plus defence when embarked, is a decent warmongering ability. UA rating = 2/5

    4. Mandelaku Cavalry. 10 less hammers is negligible (its less than 10% of the total) but no city penalty is sizeable. Only problem is, to be in a position to do well out of conquest you will have to have built a load of XBs, won't you? Is it viable to just built horses until Cavalry and then try to take a load of cities with them? My intuition and limited experience says not. These are not keshiks. UA rating = 2/5.

    5. Mud mosques. No maintenance is negligible but +2 culture in every city isn't bad, and helps border expansion. UA rating =2/5

    Civ rating = 11

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    America

    America's advantages are: Extra sight, cheaper tiles, Minutemen, B-17

    1. Extra sight. This may not seem very important to turtlers, but bearing in mind this Tier list aims to highlight the importance of conquest, it must be said that this extra sight gives a lot more reconnaissance information to plan one's capital sweep order and even for peaceful players they will find, on average, 1 or 2 more ruins more quickly. People who say this is something like Shoshone-lite are missing the point. They can find the ruins better than the Pathfinders. Only once the ruins are gotten does the Native Tongues kick in. I prefer the extra sight, and it lasts all game. On continents when you have to send units over to the other continents with OB treaties to see what's what, this shines yet again and it takes many turns off the job. UA rating 3/5.

    2. Cheaper tiles.
    Most players buy at least a few tiles over the course of the game. I probably buy 20 or more, so for me this adds up to a big saving. It really helps get the start up and running. UA rating 2.5/5

    3. Minutemen. The best infantry-path UU, I think it's fair to say. No terrain penalties, points towards GA, and Drill 1. The great start you get with the sight and the cheap tiles means you can usually have Gunpowder in good time to start wrecking the AIs units with them. After Machinery you beeline them and have some premium quality meat shields for your XBs, and later, your cannons and artillery. UU rating 3/5

    4. B17. Like bombers, but a fair bit better. Nothing complicated here. UU rating 2/5

    Civ rating = 10.5

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    Mongolia

    Mongolia's advantages are Keshiks, Khans, City state attack bonus and Faster mounted units.

    1. Keshiks. These are completely different from Knights. Rather than being used as meat shields for XBs, they are themselves the XBs, in effect. XBs that can move 3 tiles, fire and then scarper. They gain promotions quickly, produce GGs more quickly, and the damage they deal to cities is not reduced. They are, without a shadow of a doubt, one of the very best UUs. UU rating = 5/5

    2. Khans. These help your Keshiks heal more quickly, and move at the same rate, rather than being left behind like other GGs. Therefore, in helping you win through conquest, these are very, very good. UU rating = 4/5.

    3. CS bonus. Almost irrelevant, since conquering CS is not optimal play except in special circumstances. Purely for roleplaying. UA rating = 0

    4. Faster mounted movement. Well, Keshiks and Khans already have this built in, so it's not really a full UA of its own. But the Horsemen that you will have to build to capture the cities, or any Knights that CS donate to you, will be slightly buffed too. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 10

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    Germany

    Germany's advantages are: Barb Army, Less Maintenance, Hanse and Panzers.

    1. Barb army. I think that people don't understand why I value this so highly. But the general idea is that you build 4-6 archers and go after barb camps and come back with 2x or 3x the number of archers. I find that camps far more often have archers in them than warriors on Deity. You can also get horsemen, spearmen and hand axes. But since you only get the unit after you kill it and clear the camp, you just wait for the one you want. OK there is a 1/3 chance you'll get nothing. But the Neutrals have a 3/3 chance of getting nothing. The Neutrals are never gonna grow their army unless they build units or get them from CS gifts. But the Barb army UA gives you even more incentive to hunt barb camps, complete CS quests and make early CS alliances, which you will benefit from game long. I seldom have a problem finding barb camps to clear and I don't "just get brutes" like some people allege. UA rating = 3/5

    2. Less maintenance. This goes nicely with Barb army but also means you save a ton of gold if the game's still going when you get to your Panzers. Let's say you have 20 panzers and 12 assorted units on T200. Thats a savingf more than 20 GPT. Not bad, huh? UA rating = 3/5

    3. Hanse. Yes, it changes the way you play slightly. But if you're going full-on conquest, then you're better off sending caravans to CS anyway, rather than to an AI that might DoW you and you lose it. With 6 trade routes to CS in the mid game, that's a whopping 30% production boost. HUGE. UB rating = 3/5

    4. Panzers. 15% stronger and 1 extra movement. UU rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 10


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    Sweden

    Sweden's advantages are: Gifting GP, GP boost for DoF , Caroleans, and Hakkapelitta.

    1. Gifting GP. This works slightly differently depending on whether or not you take Honor or not. If you do, you will end up with too many GGs, so you donate the ones you don't want to whichever CS you want and it's usually enough to ally it. That means you can get a ton of extra culture or happiness (most popular choices), or faith or food or units (not so useful). But this system is really flexible around what you want to get. It's more of a 'seller's market', in terms of the exchange, because you just don't need all those GGs, and you can choose what you want to get. If you want a religion, you can have one. If you want to rip through Honor and finish it super early (like I did on DCL #4), you can. If you want to expand quickly and stay happy, you can. I mean, generally speaking. There are situations when the 1st GG doesn't have a game-changing effect, but I play with Sweden more often than any civ (they're my favourite) and they are just so versatile with the GG gifts...If you don't go Honor, you're best off pursuing peaceful tradition, patronage and aesthetics and then you will end up with too many GWs, GAs, and GMs. Not all of these need to make great works, so you can gift those to the CS you're not yet allied with. This means that both DiploV and CV are made so much easier. You will, over the course of the game, have a lot more influence with CS, and that is almost immeasurably good. UA rating = 8.

    2. GP boost. You'll have a fair few more GP over the course of the game. On average, I'd say I can maintain 4 or 5 DoFs until T250, which results in several more GP. If someone does the exact math on this I'd be appreciative. I admit I've not collected exact numbers in my Sweden games because I'm enjoying playing more than collecting screenshots and data. Provisional UA rating of 2/5.

    3. Caroleans. Riflemen with March. UU rating = 1/5.

    4. Hakkapelitta. An awkward way of getting wanted GGs to the front line. Especially when you consider that Khans have the extra movement. UU rating = 0. (I wish I could be more generous but I never use them! :D)

    Civ rating = 10 (-1 for tundra bias)

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    China

    China's advantages are: Paper Makers, Chu-Ko-Nus, and GG bonus.

    1. Paper Makers. A library for free and giving +2 gold. Not bad. UB rating = 2/5.

    2. CKNs. Totally excellent. Because they fire twice they earn promotions twice as quickly. XB rushes are the most reliable Domination strategy and it becomes even easier with these guys. UU rating = 5/5.

    3. GG bonus. Earning GGs 1.5x faster is not too bad, but I think I usually have too many anyway. I guess you could say you can citadel bomb with impunity as China. But the double combat bonus that the GGs give is huge. UA rating = 3/5.

    Civ rating = 10
     
  7. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    The civs in this tier have ratings from 7 (minimum) to 10 (maximum)

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    Spain

    Spain's UA advantages are more difficult to measure than most civs, since they are so map dependent. On certain maps (like DCL #20), they are probably the best civ. On other maps, they are not much different from the Neutrals. So I'm going to automatically give 2.5/5 for Extra gold and 2.5/5 for Double yields. They are so situational.

    Spain's remaining advantages are its UUs: Tercios and Conquistadors.

    1. Tercios. Tougher and better against mounted units (which they are on Deity very likely to come up against at the time you want to use them) than the Neutrals' Musketmen. UU rating 2/5.

    2. Conquistadors. No one is going to pretend that founding cities on Deity post T100 is a good idea, so we'll just concentrate on Extra sight, no city attack penalty and embarked defence. All of these make Conquistadors a lot better than Knights. Better even than Mandelaku Cavalry, with whom they share some similarities. UU rating 3/5.

    Civ rating = 10

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    The Aztecs

    The Aztec's advantages are: Jaguars, Floating Gardens, and Culture from kills

    1. Jaguars. Healing when killing is pretty strong. Keeping that ability all the way through to Infantry is really good. While not as mobile as horses, they can keep pace with your archers, CBs, and XBs, on the road (later in upgraded form as Swordsmen, etc.) and if you give them Cover and Blitz they become really awesome. UU rating = 3/5

    2. Floating gardens. Helps your cities grow bigger, and bigger cities make more science and culture :) UB rating = 3/5

    3. Culture from kills. This loses some impact in later eras, but for the first half of the game it means you zoom through Social Policies, especially if you go Honor or Tradition first. A great culture game early on makes it a lot easier to win in the longterm. UA rating = 3/5.

    Civ rating = 9

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    Brazil

    Brazil's advantages are: Carnival, Brazilwood camps and Pracinhas.

    1. Carnival. This, of course, is god-mode for peaceful CVs. No question about it, carnival makes everything so much easier at the right time. UA rating 5/5.

    2. Brazilwood camps. Probably the best UI. A jungle tile with University and Brazil wood camp give 2 food, 2 beakers, 2 culture and 2 gold. So a great all-round tile. UI rating 3/5.

    3. Pracinhas. Earning points towards a Carnival is nice, but let's face it, you're probably not going to be using these. Unless of course, playing peaceful CV until T200-250 then going on a rampage with Infantry units is somehow easier than sitting tight and using your hammers and gold to speed up victory? Didn't think so. Defence-wise, you don't want to have to fend off AI aggression, that's never gonna make anything easier. And no one should be coming at you if you build enough of these. UU rating = 1/5 (being generous).

    Civ rating = 9

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    Russia

    Russia's advantages are Double resources, Extra hammers, Cossacks and Krepost.

    1. Double resources. This is useful, but honestly it's overkill unless you want to play peaceful and just sell them all. From an actual gaming point of view, it's also tiring to sit there and sell 30 iron for 1/2 GPT over and over. Does this make it easier to win? Yes. How much? A little bit, I think. Early on it can help you make a good start, but after a while no one wants your ore or lumber anymore. UA rating = 2/5.

    2. Extra hammers. A bunch of extra hammers across the whole game? Nothing to disparage. Situational, but not too situational. More useful than the double resources because it's something than snowball a lot more easily for a good start, and unlike the advantage from double resources, it doesn't become less good later on. The raw hammers can become multiplied by other dynamics, for example. UA rating = 3/5

    3. Cossack. A slightly better cavalry unit. UU rating = 1/5.

    4. Krepost. The tile acquisition sub-ability is really quite excellent. Compared with the Neutrals, your expos will, once you've got a Krepost up and running, spread their borders pretty nicely. I don't think it's QUITE as much as tradition, but it's noticeable. UB rating = 3/5

    Civ rating = 9


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    The Shoshone

    The Shoshone's advantages are: Pathfinders, Comanche riders, Extra territory and Combat bonus.

    1. Pathfinders. Yes, in an ideal world where each Pathfinder could find 5 ruins, and you build 2 of them (in addition to the one you start with), the advantages would be really large. But I feel that people overvalue PFs for 3 main reasons: Firstly, the availability of ruins is not so constant that you can always get many more decent advantages to the Neutrals would do if they built 2 scouts. People tend to remember the times they got a total of 15 ruins and had a really, really strong start. But if they played 10 maps in a row to T40 they would find, I think, that on average, the difference is not so vast. It's strong, but not game-breakingly strong. It's not like Babylon's free GS or anything. Secondly, to build two PFs is almost twice as many hammers, which creates opportunity costs that aren't so obvious (delayed shrine if you DON'T get faith from a ruin). I have to say that this unit warrants further investigation on my part, and I'm also open to argument and mathematical proofs, but for now I'm going to give it a rating of 3/5

    2. Comanche Riders. Slightly better cavalry. UU rating = 1/5.

    3. Extra territory. VERY nice, no doubt about it. Saves a lot of gold and time. But it IS a one-time bonus, you can't choose the tiles, and you still need the workers to work the tiles. So not game-changing. With a lot of these ratings, I have to consider how much easier it makes to win the game. By this standard, I give this UA a rating of 3/5.

    4. Combat bonus. Not bad, but not game changing. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 8

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    Denmark

    Denmark's advantages are: Berserkers, Ski Infantry, No pillage cost, and Embark/Disembark bonus.

    1. Berserkers.
    Because they come earlier than Longswordsman, you can actually use these on Deity with good effect, provided you beeline for Metal Casting. Most Classical and Medieval era UUs are not so effective against Deity AIs because they are generally still ahead of you in tech, but Berserkers are an exception in most cases. Early Metal Casting is also a nice path to take because it gives you Workshops in good time, and you should be able to capture a capital with a few of these. The +1 extra movement is difficult to deal with when the AI is controlling Harald. In human hands its game-changing. Combined with no movement cost to pillage, they can be a really effective mid-game force. Since Denmark have coast bias and most Pangaea, Continents and Fractal maps have water that can be crossed, I think people have been largely ignoring the Danes. They're not the best all-round civ, but they are a decent domination CV and can, if wanted just play peacefully with tradition, take a diversion to Metal Casting, pump out some Berserkers, steal a capital or two, play peaceful again, and maybe get one more capital when those same Berserkers upgrade into...

    2. Ski Infantry. The more modern version of the berserker. Nowhere near as good, but since they retain the berserker's abilities if upgraded, it's a good reason to keep them alive and kiling. UU ratings 3/5 (for Berserkers) and 1/5 (for Ski Infantry).

    3. No pillage cost. Doesn't break the game, but helps melee units stay alive longer while they soak up damage and keep ranged units alive. UA rating 2/5

    4. Embark/disembark. Very helpful when crossing water, and can catch the AI off guard with the right landing. UA rating 2/5

    Civ rating = 8

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    Egypt

    Egypt's advantages are: Wonder bonus, War chariots and Burial tombs.

    1. Wonder bonus. Everyone knows that you have to get used to building less wonders on Deity. On Emperor and below, you can build almost everything you want. For peaceful play you can't usually get GL, HG, Petra, ToA, LToP, SC, etc. with the Neutrals. The earlier ones you're very unlikely to get unless they are somehow neglected and you pick them up T75ish. The later ones you might miss by a few turns with good play, and I suppose Egypt have a better shot at them. But it doesn't rule out losing them, and that's a danger. You might push hard for CI, LtoP, SC, etc, and still miss them with this 20% bonus. Later wonders can be gotten, of course, and this shaves a few turns off. This is a difficult UA to measure, but I'll give it 2/5 to be safe.

    2. War chariots. No horses needed and +1 movement for such an early unit is quite good. They are not as good as HAs, in my view, but there isn't a lot in it. If you want to go early war with Egypt, and have horses, you can build 6 or 7 WCs and go take yourself some cities quite easily, even on Deity. UU rating 4/5

    3. Burial tombs. +2 happiness per city and free upkeep is well worth building these. UB rating 2/5.

    Civ rating = 8

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    Siam

    Siam's advantages are: Elephants, Extra CS 'yields', Extra XP from CS unit gifts, and Wats.

    1. Elephants. As with the other elephant units, having slower speed and being tougher is not enough payoff for the lack of speed. But this one also has a bonus against mounted which is kept when it upgrades to Cavalry, so you can have Cavalry that are even better against other Cavalry. Too bad its a bit slow. UU rating = 2/5

    2. Extra yields.
    Very nice indeed. Unlike Alex's UA it doesn't prolong the alliance, and unlike Sweden it doesn't help you acquire them, but for the time you have the alliances you will get a decent boost. This makes it a fair bit easier to win, it has to be said. UA rating = 3

    3. Extra XP. Marginal, as its small and only applies to gifted units. UA rating = 1/5

    4. Wats. A university with a bit of extra culture. UB rating = 2/5


    Civ rating = 8

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    Polynesia

    Polynesia's advantages are: Maori warriors, Moai, Embarkation, Extra sight when embarked, Combat bonus near Moai

    1. Maori warrior. 10% penalty to enemy units. A slight advantage. UU rating 1/5

    2. Moai. As with all UI on Deity, we have to ask the question: is it better than a regular farm or mine? Since not having the farm/mine means there are lost food and hammers. On Deity, my basic position about these UIs is that regardless of whether you go peaceful or warring, there are better thing to be doing with workers. Peaceful workers can chop forest and jungle to make room for more farms to grow cities, and build mines to help those big cities make wonders and projects. Warring workers build roads, act as bait, scout past enemy cities, sometimes built fortresses for a difficult siege, and a ton of other things. Moais are nice for roleplaying, and if you can't win a CV the normal way, you could always keep your culture going while playing for a DiploV. When I look at the players who built them on DCL #10, I can't say that it made it much easier for them to win. I've completely changed my opinion of this UI after winning a comfortable CV on DCL #10. They are still situational, but if you have the space to spam them, they are broken. UI rating = 3/5.

    3. Embarkation. This can be pretty useful in the period between founding your last city and waiting for astronomy, its true. Or for meeting everyone early, etc. It does change the way you play, but has some obvious advantages. You can get a load of extra ruins, gold from CS meetings, etc. UA rating = 3/5.

    4. Extra sight when embarked. Useful for not landing vulnerable units onto places that have a barb that can kill them, for spotting NWs that are a couple of tiles inland, and a few other things. Also for naval warfare, though this is already so easy when the AI can't move and shoot. Not game-changing, but a little easier. UA rating = 1/5

    5. Combat bonus near Moai. A defensive bonus, provided you have already gone to the trouble of building them. Not sure I can call this an advantage to make it easier to win. UA rating = 0/5

    Civ rating = 8

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    The Netherlands

    The Netherlands' advantages are Trading Company, Polders and Sea Beggars.

    1. Trading Company. This is a very useful ability. There are many situations in the early game where trading away your last copy of something can give valuable gold, cement a friendship, grab a WLTKD for you, and many other smaller advantages. Lack of coastal bias means that you need to make the most of what you have to maximise gold, and this UA lets you do that. UA rating = 3/5.

    2. Polders. These are far too rare to really make much of a difference to anything. We can all imagine some paradisiacal location with a river, a ton of floodplains, and twin ridges of desert hills acting as headlands behind the floodplains, and having Polders on the floodplains and Petra in the city...etc. Sadly, this UI is really quite rubbish. Maybe if the Neutrals started next to a ton of marshes it would come in handy. UA rating = 1/5

    3. Sea Beggars. Prize ships, supply and Coastal Raider II make for a much improved city capture vessel. UU rating = 3/5

    Civ rating = 7

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    The Celts

    The Celts' advantages are: Faith from forests, Pictish warriors and Ceilidh hall.

    1. Faith from forests. OK so you will have the first pantheon most likely. Good for you. But how much does this ability actually translate into a strong religion? And how useful are pantheons by themselves? i.e. do they make the game much easier to win? These are, as with a few other civs, questions I am open to debate on. There is a chance that a future DCL will feature the Celts, and we have a chance to explore them communally. But currently, I'm of the view that, on Deity, the Celts UA is not enough to get a religion by itself much of the time, and that their forest bias takes them away from the terrain types most likely to generate decent faith pantheons. I'm also of the view that pantheons, while nice , won't last long on Deity without a religion, and the AIs religions will knock them out. A very hard UA to score, but I'm going to give it 3/5.

    2. Pictish warriors. A spearman (Lancer path) who gains faith from kills and has a wandering combat bonus. No movement cost to pillage, but how often do you pillage with spearmen anyway? One unit on its own is gonna get mashed by the 5 or 6 units at least the AI will have floating around their city. And why would you build a load of spearmen? How much better than a normal Spearman does this make it? UU rating = 2/5 (if I'm generous)

    3. Ceilidh halls. +3 happiness per city is nice, but does it make the game easier to win? If you're playing peaceful and wide it could be quite useful, I guess. Peaceful and tall doesn't have significant happiness problems, neither does warmongering, if done properly. I guess I could give it a UB rating of 2/5.

    Civ rating = 7

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    Ethiopia

    Ethopia's advantages are: Stele, Combat bonus and Mehal safari

    1. Stele. The reason that people play as Ethiopia, generally. An early pantheon, and a shot at a religion. But the religion is not quite guaranteed. You need a pantheon as well, in most cases. I'll give it a slightly higher rating than I gave the Celts' UA, since it's less situational, and you will always build a monument.4/5

    2. Combat bonus. Not useful for Domination. Not usually necessary for peaceful play. Could make a difference against early DoWs. UA rating = 2/5.

    3. Mehal Sefari. A rifleman with Drill I and a bonus close to the capital. UU rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 7
     
  8. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    The civs in this tier have ratings from 3 (minimum) to 7 (maximum)

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    Japan

    Japan's advantages are: Samurai, Zero, Extra culture and Bushido.

    1. Samurai. Not bad. They start with a promotion, earn GG quicker and Medieval UUs have a shout at being effective against weaker AIs. The fishing boats thing is a waste since if you haven't got all your boats up before Steel then you've made a booboo, anyway. But I've had some fun with Samurai, and their icon is pretty cool. UU rating = 2/5.

    2. Zero. This unit is frustrating, really. At the stage of the game when they come along, most war is being done with Artillery, Bombers and Cavalry. If the enemy has a lot of bombers in their cities, they will be attacking your units. Zeros are really only effective as a response to fighters, which I don't see Deity AI producing. And since the unit cap on bombers, the principal tactic, as I understand it, is to have units that can withstand the battering. You should be 1 or 2 capitals away from winning anyway. And Zeros being used purely for defence while you pursue a peaceful VC would mean that you have wasted Japan's UA and UU. If you play as Japan you should go to war. End of. UU rating = 1/5.

    3. Bushido. A double-edged sword, if you'll pardon the pun. Yes, it helps with those situations where you just need to break through and capture the city or win a decisive battle, but it might encourage you to play too recklessly and forget that your units ARE still damaged, after all. After playing game-long Domination on DCL #43, with Warriors and Archers upgraded all the way, I can clearly see that more of them are surviving than in my usual bloody and sacrificial campaigns. Score amended! UA rating = 2/5 4/5.

    4. Extra culture. Negligible, rare, and map-dependent. Need I say more. UA = 0/5.

    Civ rating = 7

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    Morocco

    Morocco's advantages are: Extra gold and culture, AI extra gold, Kasbah, Berber cavalry and Desert bias.

    1. Extra gold and culture. For each trade route to a different civ, you get a bit of extra gold. These can then be affected by modifiers, but it's still not a massive difference in making the game easier. UA rating = 1/5.

    2. Extra AI gold. This is better than you think, because if you aim to play peacefully with Morocco (which will be most of the time), it can make the difference between a DoW or not. Certainly I found this to be the case in my 3 games with them on Deity, where I forward settled and they forgot about it. Again, not a massive difference, but can help you get up and running before you catch up to the AI. UA rating 2/5.

    3. Kasbah. I think it's better to have an unemployed citizen than work a blank desert tile. Kasbahs on desert hills are nice, but mines are probably nicer in most cases (or farms if they have access to fresh water). UI rating = 0/5 (sorry, Ahmad)

    4. Berber cavalry. Slightly better than normal. UU rating = 1/5

    5. Desert bias. We all know that deserts are disproportionately great in Civ 5 compared with real life, and we all know how broken DF can be, and that Petra can be quite decent sometimes. So is anyone going to seriously argue with me giving 2/5 for this bias?

    Civ rating = 6



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    Ottomans

    The Ottomans advantages are: Janissaries, Sipahis, Reduced naval maintenance, Prize ships.

    1. Janissaries. Nothing complicated about it. Substantially better than the Musketmen of the Neutrals. UU rating = 2/5

    2. Sipahis. Lancers aren't much good anyway, and I'm not sure if the Sipahi is actually better than normal Lancers. More movement, more sight, better at pillaging, but weaker, so not so good in the one area that Lancers are already pretty bad (strength). I guess overall it could even out to a UU rating of 1/5

    3. Reduced naval maintenance. The map types I've chosen are quite likely to have naval warfare, so this is often useful, though not as useful as Germany's, since you will ALWAYS need 'boots on the ground'. There are some maps where you will not use naval warfare. Still, it's quite a big saving. UA rating =2/5.

    4. Prize ships. Since the main unit the Neutrals have that they are going to want to use for prize ships (Privateer) already have this promotion, it's not much of an advantage. On Deity, warring with Triremes and Caravels is really underpowered. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 6

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    Assyria

    Assyria's advantages are: Siege Towers, Royal Library and Tech stealing.

    1. Siege Towers. Some people rave about these, but I think that getting them at Mathematics means that they come too late to be much use on Deity. Maybe I am not playing it properly. I invite comments on this point. They are really powerful on lower difficult levels, broken perhaps. But on Deity, even when I beeline Maths after lux techs, I run into troops that can smash these up. UU rating = 2/5

    2. Royal library. A minuscule buff for troops when filled with great works. But warmongers want to use GWs and GAs for faster SPs and Golden Ages, respectively. UB rating = 1 (being generous)

    3. Tech stealing. This can be great if you get something you really want. But a bit hit and miss. UA rating = 2/5.

    Civ rating = 5

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    Austria

    Austria's advantages are: Marriage, Coffee House and Hussars.

    1. Marriage. I have to say that although people rave about this, I honestly can't think of how it fits into any broader strategy with any great efficacy. If you're playing peaceful SV or CV, then it seems that adding cities is just adding a few beakers. But the city won't have had a good BO up to that point. Tile improvements will be sketchy. Since the marriage is the same price as a settler, wouldn't it have been better just to have built another settler and founded a city after NC? Yeah, you get a few units, too. But this doesn't really make it easier to win, I think. You could have built units yourself. Plus there is the happiness hit, culture and beaker speeds are then affected, etc., etc. For warmongering, I'd much rather build units of my choosing, and use the 500 gold for something better. And use the CS as an ally, not have to marry them. And how many are you gonna buy? 1 or 2 CS? Seems like mainly a roleplaying UA. When I used to play on Prince and win by Domination I had one game where I bought all the CS and conquered all the AI cities. I hadn't learned about razing yet. That was kinda fun. But on Deity this just seems really underpowered. I'll give it 1/5 so people can't whine and whine about it, but really, I just don't see the point.

    2. Coffee houses. A mid-late game boost to GP shouldn't be discounted. That's not bad. Not sure it's optimal to build windmills for production that late on, but hey, I guess some benefit can come from not having to have it on the flat. I've not done the math about the GP, but I guess you could maybe get 2 or 3 more GP from it? I'll await anyone with actual information on this, but my provisional UB rating is 2/5.

    3. Hussars. Flanking bonus, extra sight and extra movement. All in all, not bad. UU rating 2/5.

    Civ rating = 5

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    Rome

    Rome's advantages are: Legions, Ballistas, and Capital-first building bonus.

    1. Legions. These suffer from the same problem as all Classical Era UUs: they just don't cut the mustard on Deity. You won't have caught up to the AI yet, and so waging war with slightly-buffed Swordsmen is not a good idea. They can build roads, but then if they're building roads then they're not farming XP or completing quests or acting as meat shields for CBs/XBs, are they? UU rating = 1/5.

    2. Ballistas. As above. On lower difficulty levels these could well be great, but laying siege to a Deity AI city with these is liable only to get them one-shotted. Yes they are a bit better than Catapults, which I'm sometimes build if I have nothing better to build, and then they can gather XP before being upgraded to Artillery later, but they're nothing to shout about. UU rating = 1/5.

    3. Capital first. I don't know about you but I like the flexibility of being able to build whatever is most effective upon completion, not having to contrive my build order to take into account what I want to start building in my expos when the capital building is complete. Generally, things that you want in all cities (like LIBRARIES) are built at the same time, so I think that this UA is really all about roleplaying, and has about as much bearing on how the game plays out as the story of Romulus and Remus has on the lives of modern Romans. There could be some things later on (Industrial era) when this becomes quite useful, but I can't imagine it being a help in the whole first half of the game. UA rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 3
     
  9. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    The civs in this tier have ratings from -2 (minimum) to 3 (maximum)

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    Carthage

    Carthage's 'advantages' are: Elephants, Quinqeremes, Free harbors and Mountain jumping.

    1. Elephants. Like many Classical Era UUs, AWEs are ineffective on Deity, since the AI will have pikes and CBs to deal with them. They don't need horses, but it's not like horses are as rare as rocking horse droppings on Standard settings. But they also cost more hammers, so I don't see much trade-off. Feared elephant is almost exactly negated by Deity AI buffs and Great Generals II is situational since you actually have to perform the kill with the Elephant, when optimal play with Mounted units uses them to damage units which are then killed from range, since otherwise the mounted unit can be at risk, especially among Deity AI carpets. UU rating = 0/5.

    2. Quinqeremes. While better than Dromons, these suffer from the reverse problem, especially on Deity. You can use them to defeat other naval vessels, but they cannot take cities very easily. If there was a way to have ranged and melee naval units in the same civ in the same time, in the Ancient Era, that would be great, but you can't so Quinqeremes are just marginally better than the Neutrals' triremes. UU rating 1/5.

    3. Free harbors. Very nice, but I think it's suboptimal to not build roads in your empire, so if you build roads you don't need harbors for city connections. Longer sea trade routes is OK, but it's not high priority in the build queue for either warmongers or peace mongers looking to spread religion, earn gold or spread tourism. UA rating = 2/5.

    4. Mountain jumping. Do I really need to write anything about this? Has any Deity player ever seriously even thought about trying to use this UA in their tactical deliberations? No? Good. UA rating = 0/5.

    Civ rating = 3

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    India

    India's advantages are: Population growth, war elephants, mughal forts

    1. Population growth. Before reading the rest of this paragraph, please watch this video from 4:35 to 5:45 if you're not absolutely sure you understand what this UA does (including the thing it does that it doesn't say that it does).....Now can you see that this UA is a lot better than you thought it was? It really makes a big difference the bigger the cities become. It doesn't even really matter how many you have within reason. In a test game I played after hearing this unknown fact, I went 3 city NC and then founded 3 more cities. The amount of happiness I had, once all cities were above 15 pop, was a lot more than I would have had with 4 cities. Kinda contrary to what the developers may have intended, but there we are. Doesn't make it a lot easier to win, but it's not the disability some consider it to be, and it allows you to grow a smaller number (<7, let's say) of cities very big without anywhere near as much unhappiness. Considering also that India have a grassland bias, I think this is pretty neat for growth in peaceful play. UA rating = 2/5

    2. War elephant. Don't need horses. Tick. Move through rough terrain. Tick. Teeny bit tougher. Half tick. Slower than horsemen. Cross....how much easier to use is this unit? For defence, I guess it's not bad. But the Neutrals can do fine with CBs and XBs with Pikes parked in front of them. War elephants DIE to horse attacks. For conquest, it's risible. UU rating = 0/5

    3. Mughal forts.
    I'm not sure that Castles find their way into the BO of many peaceful players, most of whom rebuff enemy attacks with units before they get to the city, or use bribes/trades to deter them. I DO build castles late-game in a conquest style to get the happiness bonus from autocracy, but only to see how high I can push my happiness. It doesn't make the game easier. A small amount of culture too. Meh. UB rating = 1/5.

    Civ rating = 3

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    France

    France's 'advantages' are: Double Theming in Capital, Musketeers, and Chateaux.

    1. Theming bonus. Ok so how this works is you get a small bonus for any wonders which you build in your capital. No bonus for any other city. And on Deity, it's quite tricky to get more than 2 or 3 of the Wonders that have theming bonuses. So the total amount of tourism gained from this 'advantage' is quite small. I'll be generous and give this UA 1/5. Doesn't really make it easier to win a CV, just gives a higher TPT.

    2. Musketeers. Not bad, but not that great. No interesting abilities to retain upon upgrade. Just 15% tougher than the Musketman of the Neutrals. UU rating 1/5

    3. Chateaux. A waste of good farmland/hammerland for a paltry amount of culture. In almost all cases, I think that the bigger city you'd have with the farmland would be able to reach techs that would allow culture buildings and run culture specialists that would provide more than the Chateaux provide. I built a million of these in the ICL a few months ago and didn't think it did much. Wish I'd built farms and reached key techs quicker. UB rating = 0/5.

    Civ rating = 2

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    Portugal

    Portugal's 'advantages' are: Extra diversity gold, Naus and Feitorias.

    1. Extra gold. Assuming a 4 city coastal empire, each city of which has 2 unique lux and is running a trade route to another city that has 2 unique lux, we get 16GPT extra. And all that for using boats which would actually bring about DiploV/CV/SV much quicker by feeding food to the capital. And assuming a fairly optimistic scenario. And dependent on AIs not attacking you/pillaging the ships. In some games, the AI will want to attack you and not trade. Unlike Morocco, who give a gold bonus to the AI that can convince it to be friendly, only Portugal gets this extra gold. Can you spell C O V E T O U S ? UA rating 1/5 (and that's being generous)

    2. Naus. A naval vessel which rather than attacking cities with I should park near to the AI city and ONCE gain a small amount of gold? And it will upgrade into an Ironclad? :( At the time caravels are available, I generally have enough GPT that 200-300 is not gonna make it worth sending them to faraway lands for non-military purposes. Sheer roleplaying in my view. Does anyone disagree and can demonstrate optimal play with them? UU rating 1/5 (for the extra speed and sight compared with the Neutrals)

    3. Feitoria. Get copies of luxes by sending workers halfway across the world to spend time building forts for CS which you're not helped to be an ally with? If you need to do this to fix your happiness or gold problems I would say you are a bad player. More roleplaying. UI rating = 0

    Civ rating = 2

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    Indonesia

    Indonesia's advantages are: Unique luxes, Candi, and Kris Swordsman.

    1. Unique Luxes. OK, so on an archipelago map this would be great. But hardly any Deity players play on it, because they're very samey and really quite unchallengingly easy. The AI has a hard time of building a decent empire, can't do naval warfare very well, and gets way more of its civilians captured by barbs. I've seen barbarians develop whole islands to themselves on Archipelago maps. On Pangaea, Continents and Fractal, Spice Islanders is almost always useless. Purely for roleplaying. UA rating = 0.

    2. Candi. Undeniably a good building, especially on Deity when your cities will, OB or not, be assaulted by literal torrents of AI missionary spam. The question is: what are you gonna do with all that faith when you're playing such a terrible civ? Buy stuff to make it less terrible, I guess. UB rating = 2/5.

    3. Kris Swordsman. A complete mixed bag. Those warriors you built and upgraded when you had Iron Casting and Iron will now either have one of 5 good promotions or one of 3 bad promotions. What are we supposed to do with the bad ones? Delete them? Play sub optimally regardless? The Neutrals won't be able to roll their luck, but then the Neutrals wouldn't be playing with Swordsmen because they know they're not gonna do much with them. More roleplaying guff. UU rating = 0

    Civ rating = 2

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    Byzantium

    Byzantium's 'advantages' are: Dromon, Cataphract and the Religious UA.

    1. Dromon = I've seen it regurgitated ad nauseum all over CFC that these are great for early naval domination. In my view this is utter codcrap. Naval domination (with Galleass and Caravel (sketchy on Deity) or Frigate and Privateer (pretty doable) or Battleship and whatever) works on the basis of having a naval-based 'melee' unit to capture the city with. The dromon is nothing like a Frigate or even a Galleass. It can't enter ocean, it's weaker than a Trireme - so even easier for Dido to Quinqereme it into smithereens and you still actually need a Trireme to capture the city with, which you can't build as this civ. An awful UU for domination. So what about defence? It's not even as good as a CB for defence. If you're going to park this thing near to your borders and hope to repeal a sea-based invasion, think again. You have to retreat into the city to effectively shield it from sea attacks, since unlike archers/CB which you can park a meat shield in front of, you have nothing to put there at this stage of the game. After playing as Byzantium in a recent CDG game, I've been persuaded by the longterm upgradeability of Dromons as well as their effectiveness as a utility ranged unit early on. Very map dependent, I'd imagine, but nonetheless, I'm revising my rating of them. UU rating = 2/5 since Triremes are actually better for scouting and surviving numerous encounters with barb galleys and enemy units.

    2. Cataphract = Mounted units that are slower than the mounted units of the Neutrals? Why bother? Ooh, it's slightly tougher! Yes, and with Honor the Neutrals can have Horsemen that are comparably tough AND faster. Or I could play as a civ with an actual great mounted UU. UU rating = -1/5.

    3. Religious UA. Let's get one thing clear. On Deity, religion is no less powerful than on other difficulty levels, it's just actually more difficult to utilise. In all my games, unless I start with an obvious faith pantheon that has only a small chance of missing out on a religion, the most sensible way to play is just to not found one. The effort put into founding one, at the most crucial stage of the game, is horrific if you try and fail. Next, this UA can be really powerful IF you found a religion, but I'd argue that playing as Byzantium you're actually LESS likely to found, since you have a coastal bias, which puts you further away from ideal faith pantheon terrain. On lower difficulty levels, Byzantium are really good, but then the better civs on this list are even better. UA rating = 0/5 (and that's being generous).

    Civ rating = 1.

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    Iroquois

    The Iroquois's 'advantages' are: Mohawk, Longhouse, Forest roads, and Forest caravans.

    Let's establish up front that most random maps on Pangaea, Continents and Fractal do not have areas that are largely forested that are the approximate size of even a 4-city tradition empire's culture borders on T100. Yeah, you can play on Arborea and the Iroquois have more forest to play with. But let's also remember that the Iroquois are NOT the only skirt-wearing primitives who live in the forest in this game. More forest means more barb camps in forests. Let's also remember that optimal play on Deity requires you to chop forests for production. See where I'm going...?

    1. Mohawks. Moving faster in forest is great if you live in the forest. But this is a really situational ability for this UU. Not requiring iron is not bad, but on Deity when you have Swords, the AI probably has Longswords or UUs that can chew up Mohawks. If you're playing defensive, you need XBs, fast. If you're going offensive, you need XBs, fast. There is no room for a UU that requires a step off the fastest tech path and is only marginally better than a Swordsman. UU rating = 1/5.

    2. Longhouse. Replaces the workshop, which is one of the few buildings that are not really optional for optimal play on Deity. There is an established time this building should be complete by, and whether offensive or defensive, it makes a big difference. The biggest difference between the Longhouse and the workshop is that you have had to deliberately avoid chopping forests for 100 turns to get any kind of benefit at all. Which means a slower NC, slower settlers, slower army, etc. etc. The real cost of a Longhouse is not the lost 15% but having to hug the trees for all that time. UB rating = -1/5

    3. Forest roads. I tried in maybe 7 or 8 games to connect a 4 city tradition empire making enough use of forests to make it worth it. I failed. If the map script was kind and generated something specifically for the Iroquois to use, then fine, but until that day, this is a waste of time. It's roleplaying is nice, and if I had to actually live in any of the civs IRL I'd choose these guys in a heartbeat but this a civilisation simulation, and forest roads suck. UA rating = 0/5

    4. Forest caravans. So my caravans to other places can go further because they are taking hidden Elf paths, right? Wrong, they are being ambushed by barb horsemen. UA rating = 0/5

    Civ rating = 0

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    Venice

    A poster to this thread made a very good case for why we shouldn't really consider Venice in these rankings at all. He agrees that they are terrible. But I think we can prove once and for all how terrible they are by comparing them with the Neutrals.

    The differences (not advantages) are: No settlers, No Annexing, Purchase in Puppets, Double Trade Routes, Free MoV at Optics

    1. No settlers. Your start, in most cases, is going to be so limited compared with the Neutrals, that you may as well be playing another game. I remember once seeing a comparison between two players at T75 of their BPT. The player with 3 cities who had gone for an early NC had 27BPT, and was about to finish NC and the settler for the 4th city. The player with 4 cities already had 41BPT. Since that time, I have realised how important the early expansion is. With Venice there is no expansion. Even later when you buy a CS, it's not an expansion. You don't get a real city to play with. Because...

    2. No annex. This means that CS puppets will build crap like Caravanasary all game long, and you can't stop it. You also can't help it grow properly by choosing food. Or change its use of specialists. Or anything that you can do in a normal city. It goes without saying that you're completely at the mercy of where the original CS settler plonked itself down. Most CS placements are completely suboptimal.

    3. Purchasing in Puppets. What exactly? Troops? Buildings? Assassins to complete a contract on the city governor who won't be told what to do? This does not solve or ameliorate the aforementioned problems much at all. It's certainly far worse than the Neutrals, who can also purchase stuff in Puppet cities. By annexing them first. (Almost without fail if I have money in the bank to spend, I have 600 gold to rush buy a Courthouse if necessary).

    4. Double Trade Routes. This does go some way to ameliorating the sad state of affairs, but it makes Venice almost a one trick pony. Sure, a good player can win other VCs with them. But it's really intended for DiploV roleplaying, it's obvious. Also, the placement of the cities you have at your disposal is very dependent on fate, since you didn't found them (except for the capital). But the Neutrals can specifically settle cities based on where they want their caravans/cargo ships to go. They have more control, even if they have less gold. I'll be extra generous and give 2/5 for this ability, so no one can complain I'm not valuing it enough. I don't value it at all, since I think Diplomacy is more about good choices than just collecting gold.

    5. Free MoV.
    Great, but the only thing I'm ever gonna get from it is gold. Custom House/Trade Mission/Buy the CS? It's all for gold, and maybe some crappy troops in the CS. But this is where I say the worst thing about Venice. You're taking a CS you could get a truly valuable benefit from - like Culture, Happiness, Food, etc. - and flushing it down the drain. Same as Austria. Of course, you could run cargo ships to your capital and make one massive city. But I'd rather make 4 massive cities with the Aztecs or Incas. UU rating = 1/5 for double gold from trade missions.

    So that's 3 points, which disappear when I apply my own judgement of -10 for No settlers and No annex. You can win with this civ but these 'differences' make it so much less easy, not more, compared to the Neutrals.

    Civ rating = -7
     
  10. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

    Joined:
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    If war, it's totally about the UUs... (esp. ranged units that can fire at cities without worrying about retaliation pre-artillery)

    Which makes Arabia and Mongols godly tier... as well as England somewhat (although longbowmen are not quite as good because they lack indirect fire)

    Everyone else is waaay below them.

    Combat bonuses like Ethiopia's or Shoshone or Japan are completely worthless in comparison. (Japan's especially... since why allow your units to get damaged in the first place if you can help it?)

    Personally I've been incorporating some war into esp. my earlier game as well (simply to clear some land and get some room to expand, or to liberate something/help a friend and take that warmonger next door down a notch), without going full blown domination. To this extent civs which have a food/production advantage early game simply outshine the later-domination civs. (England is good but early game they got nothing for example... on the other hand Maya or Celts are pretty good but you wouldn't think of them as domination civs)

    Faith is hard to evaluate, but in the end I think bonuses like the Celts (guarateed pantheon) or Ethiopia are HUGE early game (depends on dirt but a pantheon can be ridiculously powerful in the early game, esp. those giving food or hammers; God King in particular is very underrated); faith income by itself is very much worthless until much later; it's all about getting that pantheon early enough before it gets taken. And of course, you can get a culture pantheon too which you might find useful when going liberty.
     
  11. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
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    You can of course make a Tier list that's specifically targeted at warmongers but if your idea was to create an alternative generalist list, i don't think you can consider warmongering advantages more than peaceful advantages because while it's true that warmongering can give you advantages, it also has costs and once you've warred too much, you simply can't switch to another VC even if you want as your economy will suffer (or become dependent on war with Honor finisher).

    It might be hard to get a generalist list of course as some civs are specialized and much better for one VC while others are medium for lots of VCs and others good for everything but not as great at a specialized civ :undecide:
     
  12. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I do not really want to get into this debate too much but I think I would have Venice in the 6th tier all alone. Although you can win with ease with them...
    I could never rate them the same as any other generic civ. I know this is not about Multi-Player but Venice is by far the worst for MP and in my mind the
    worst for SP.
     
  13. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
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    It's not a list for warmongers, it's an overall list that recognises the fact that conquest as a dynamic should not be ignored as an either/or strategy. In fact one can war and then win by other means. Hence why some people write 'Not entirely peaceful SV' when they win on the DCL, for example.

    If you don't agree with this, then just ignore this tier list. Or start a thread arguing against my proposition. But really I think it's hard to refute. Look at the screenshot and the accompanying explanation.
     
  14. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    huns and mongols are God tier domination civs ..
     
  15. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    yeah but this is not "Tier List of Domination on Deity" kind of list, innit :)
     
  16. Carazycool

    Carazycool Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
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    MA
    This is well done, @consentient.

    I have been an immortal player for a long time. I never quite graduated to diety. I usually grow frustrated and quit at some point, and I haven't played diety consistently enough to improve.

    I have only won one diety game (DCL #20), though I didn't bother posting my game or discussing it. I am not sure what is the preferred way to discuss/post about a DCL game after finishing it. I usually am too zoned into my mid-game to consider taking screen shots and posting about it.

    I think I have the habit of over-turtling for sure. Part of that is just laziness. Perpetual warmongering requires lots of long turns and attention to detail. Also, my mouth waters at seeing good settling spots or wonders that I want to build and I usually give in to temptation.

    Your detailed Tier List makes me want to start diving into some diety games with a focus on warmongering. I'll try all the God Tier civs first. Thanks for this analysis!
     
  17. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Yes but this list is NOT just about war. It just points out that conquest can be more valuable than people realise. This list doesn't discount the other VCs, otherwise it would be 2 tier. God-tier DomV civs and everyone below them. But I recognise that getting a science victory with Korea is probably even easier than getting a DomV with them, because they are so completely broken in human hands.

    Maybe I have the Mongols too low, but I have Arabia in god tier already. It's just the CS part of the UA which is quite useless, really. The UUs are great, no doubt.

    This I completely agree with, hence I did not weight it highly in my ranking.

    That's great. It's exactly the kind of reason why I'm trying to show that conquest is far more powerful than people give it credit for.

    I don't understand what you mean about food. Early hammers are nice, but in the case of Russia there is a cost, in that you're probably not gonna get grassland as well.

    The Maya's UA is one of the strongest. That alone makes them god tier IMO. I've played a ton of games with The Celts lately and I just think they're actually pretty mediocre. The Ceilidh halls are probably the best thing about them. The consistency of getting a religion with the Celts, post-patch is not great, whether you go Liberty, Piety, Honor or Tradition. I've tried each several times.

    Without a full religion your pantheon will disappear faster than you can say 'proselytisation'.

    On my first play through of DCL #12 I chose GotH and had about 10 turns of extra food from elephants before Monty spread his murder religion southwards and made it all fruitless (excuse the pun...fruitless elephants)

    True, but the Celts and Ethiopia are less likely than some other civs to actually get this. Monty has a good shot at it, and he has many other benefits to food, too.

    I almost agree but they are, I think, marginally better than Iroquois and Austria. In some situations, Venice can actually have a disability (i.e. if their starting position is irredeemably bad, they will be in serious problems) but otherwise, it's like an OCC game with a bit of help. If they happen to have CS that can feed them with Cargo Ships then they are not bad, but still, for Domination and Culture they are quite poor. But don't forget about the trade routes and Small Piety ;)

    Yes, I agree. And IF this list were ALL about DomVs, then I'd have them both at the top. But it's a more balanced list, and the Huns, while good at sweeping Pangaea, struggle a bit with Continents and Fractals. Arabia and England are both better at these maps, aren't they?
     
  18. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    GotH (as with any pantheon which is non-faith generating but requires some tech, can be weak); esp. when you are dealing with ELEPHANTs (which are tiles you really do not want to work); try again when you spawn with 4 deer and 3 bison...

    What I had in mind was something like Sun God on a wheat/citrus plains/floodplains start.

    Even if you don't keep it, as Celts you've had the pantheon probably for a good 80 turns already or so; and that's more than enough time to use the advantage to crush your early game neighbor. The more aggressive I've been playing, the more I discover that early game bonuses are big. God King with Celts starting on a hill, going worker first while researching mining (and techs take shorter to research too), then chopping out other things, is one of the fastest starts I've ever seen; and you don't need a culture ruins either.
     
  19. consentient

    consentient Domination!

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    3,330
    But don't you think that floodplains with wheat and citrus for Celts is extremely unlikely?

    Deer is more likely, but I rarely see more than 2.
     
  20. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    998
    Its your list so do what you want but I've played several games using a three city Honor Opening with Austria and its much better than a neutral civ with no UA. The ability to buy a high population CS with infastructure in place, as well as several military units that you can upgrade and promote quickly and cheaply; all for the cost of a settler works well with a midgame push that is going to require some cannon fodder. I actually think the Coffee House is a decent building if you've conquered alot and are cruising into the end game trying to pop as many great people as possible. You don't really have to use Honor to make it work you could just want to add on a 4th or 5th City using tradition and use the units you get as additional defense/aggression.
     

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