1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

An arabic tale (of Israel, the Usa, and us)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kyriakos, Jul 14, 2006.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,031
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    In a very older thread, from last year, i had outlined the main reasons of anti-semitism. Briefly, those were mainly two (with their sub-categories) :

    1. The false image of the 'martyr' - from the holocaust, but also from the bible.

    2. The false image of the 'special race' - from the bible, and zionism.

    Any people who are collectively seen as something (besides, no people are collectively something; inevitably this becomes a stereotype and prevents from more free examination of them) are bound to attract attention due to such a view of them. If someone is seen as a martyr then the more healthy elements in a society will want to first examine whether he trully is one, and then move to turn him into a regular person, since being a martyr is in reality either a negative quality (since supposedly one is in mourning of it, or harmed) or a potential prerequisite for superiority syndromes.
    Naturally no race can logically be seen collectively as special. Everyone who has lived in a different country than his own will have formed the view that there are different levels of society everywhere, and the main difference is the specific form that the various lower, medium, and higher cultures of each society take. Also there are people of different backgrounds, different intellectual capacities, different interests, different morality, different ideologies. Moreover, if one moves away from the realm of sociology, and into the realm of psychology, even more detailed examainations of the massive differences from individual to individual can be noticed. All this, very clearly, demonstrates that not only is it false to claim that an entire race is 'special', but that it is false to claim that anyone is special wholistically, albeit at least in people there are more serious grounds for arguing in favour of such an epithet.

    The notion of the 'martyr', although it is founded on the holocaust, in reality did very little ever in favour of the jewish people. A very simplistic sense of being special could have been its result, along with a collective dissaproval of old enemies, but that is too general to be seen as worth one's time, and besides it is very poor logic for a jewish person to base his view of himself on something which happened to his relatives during ww2. It is similarity very poor logic for one to sustain notions of grandeur based on history, and it seems highly likely that in all cases such a position is in reality the result of the fear that other than those general and quisi-mythical notions of such a collective identity, their bearer has little to show for his own self and accomplishments.

    The notion of a 'special race' is even less positive. Afterall it is a notion employed by various races in the course of history, from the ancient Greeks, to the English, the Germans, and the Jews. No person is the embodyment of his race, since his race itself is nothing stable, but is an abstract. One could link race with current culture, but then again even current culture is multi-faceted, and even in nations where their own cultural product holds a significant part of the entire cultural life in their country still inevitably one individual appreciation of that current culture will be evidently distinct from the next one. In reality, therefore, the notion of a 'special race' is a notion which exists quite unliked to any logical examination of it, and exists as an island of thought and emotion, and as a popular dream.

    Due to the unhealthy persistence of such notions of martyrdom and special race, Israel has brought anti-semitism on itself. This can be more easily seen antistrophically: a nation which has no globally known exagenarted views of itself (which does not mean that they do not exist; it only means that we do not hear of them) will not cause a similar racism against it. Most people in the Usa probably do not even know a single Latvian, or any example of Latvian culture, and so a massive anti-Latvianism could simply not occur. On the other hand there is some anti-latinoamerican sentiment, and some anti-eruopean sentiment, but both not due to logic, but because there simply are popular pools of association to be found for their formation. In the case of latin americans there is a fear of illegal aliens, and in the case of Europe a reactionary stance towards a percieved high-brow dissaproval, but both of these are important due to their nature as similar 'islands of thought and emotion' since mass sentiment is formed by mostly illogical reasons.

    The false views of Israel, in the Usa, also have very strong grounds on that country's alarming bi-polarity in regards to religion. Whereas in most of the EU religious sentiment is a lot less pronounced, in the Usa it seems that it has taken a totally different form. Israel is seen as a country which has connections with a god, and one could assume that this is enough justification for a myriad of problematic associations to follow.

    Moreover there is a second American false connection to Israel, and that is through the so-called 'war on terror'. While 'war on terror' has largely produced little more as a result that the ussual wars of old, it has on the other hand rapidly produced an ever larger polarity in the Usa, which can be seen in the typical extreme right or left positions, and the entire spectrum of their subcategories. However the war on terror, and Israel's war on Palestine, should not be seen as one and the same, despite Sharon's attempts to make a tautology of them in one of his last speeches. It should be realised that the 'war on terror' is once again only a catch-phrase, or a 'key-phrase'. It gains whatever substance one may see in it not by its actual rellevance to any reality, but from the deeper sentiment of the one who focuses on it. Far more logical than a waving of a flag with the letters 'war on terror' below its stripes, is to think of the amount of human suffering which is being caused as a very direct result of the war actions which are taking place.
    We have read of numbers of people who have been killed in the recent attacks. We read of 52 people which have died in a few bombings in a civilian airport, but we are not of the habbit of multiplying ourselves with that number so as to arrive at a conclusion of the amount of destruction. Instead it would seem that at least some people view that number as something very plain and insignificant. 3000 dead in the twin towers may seem more significant, but then following the same logic they are equally meaningless, much like 3000 multiplied by the zero of calculated indifference still produces a result of zero. So 52 times zero gives zero as well, when on the other end of the scale we have a blown-up notion of a just 'war on terror', which by itself manages to escape being multiplied with another zero, since is falsely seen as an actual intelligent thought.

    My view is that Israel has managed to survive up to now as nation, inspite of its acts, due to a very wrong web of connections which exist about anything related to semitism. The world has to rid itself of this entirely false notion of semitism, and view the jewish people as just one more race, with no more and no less privilidges than any other. The assymetrical retaliation against the attacks against it will in no way help it improve its position, and definately they will provide another basis for the hostility of the arab world against it to grow deeper. Violence will not bring an end to violence, and rage will not make rage dissappear.

    Ironically there is an arabic story which i can refer to so as to demostrate this view. It is part of the novel 'arabian nights' (1001 nights). This part is called 'the tale of the evil Jin'.
    The evil Jin, a spirit of some sort, was traped inside a bottle, and was thrown to the bottom of the sea. One day a fisherman fished out the bottle, and opened it, thus liberating the Jin. However his wonder soon turned into horror, as the Jin announced that for that act of Liberation it shall now take the fisherman's life.
    The fisherman begged for his life, and also noted to the Jin that he had freed it, so it was unfair to be punished for such an act. So the Jin went on to explain why it was set on killing him. It told of the first 10.000 years of his captivity, during which it had made the promiss that it would bring all joy in the world to the one who would liberate it. But the first 10.000 years passed, and it was not liberated. Then for the second 10.000 years it made the promiss that it would bring all wealth to its liberator. But again those passed, and it was still inside its bottle. So it then made the promiss that it would kill whoever had given it its freedom.
    The fisherman, using a trick, managed in the end to make the Jin return inside its bottle, and he then quickly closed the lid, after which he yelled angrily at the Jin, before throwing the bottle back to the sea.
    The moral of the story, though, was that the rage of the Jin was faced by the equal rage of the fisherman, and never did the fisherman stop to think of how differently one would feel due to his so long captivity. The Jin's point of view was very briefly presented, but of it we only read of its fearsome decision to murder its liberator, and not at all of what caused its captivity, or of how the years passed inside the small bottle.
    Likewise we should keep in mind that we do not know of how the captivated Palestinians feel, not being allowed to have a state for so many years, and living in an appalling state of siege. We should not only notice their acts of fear and rage, but wonder what has caused them. If we fail to do so then we will just have acted like that fisherman, and- who knows- perhaps if we happen to fish a similar bottle, the result in the end may be even more horrific.
     
  2. Nad

    Nad Known Troublemaker

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2002
    Messages:
    1,718
    Location:
    London, UK
    Great post varwnos.

    Maybe you could also answer another question then, which links in to the above.

    "Anti-Semitism" has been around for ages. If you had to point to one group/race which has been consistently hated throughout history to varying degrees, then it would be the Jews. Is this because of the so-called portrayal as the "special race"?
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,031
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    There is an examination of the reasons for that in some of Nietzsche's work, where his argument is that Israel, due to its historical problems (small size, surrounded by powerfull empires) was forced to develop a very different inverted mentality, with its corresponding egopathy and self-proclaiming special status. The jewish god, unlike the greek-roman and norse gods, was not only another god, but specifically the god of the jews and they were his chosen race. Unlike in the case of greek gods, who frequently were asian (for example Dionysus was seen as the asiatic god, and so he stood for various 'anti-greek' or anti-Apollonean aspects of life) the jewish god was one who only revealed himself to the Jews, and did not care about anyone else.

    Definately the dependence of christianity on judaism is another evident reason for the false 'special status' to be perpetuated, at least in the collective subconscious. :)
     
  4. Nad

    Nad Known Troublemaker

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2002
    Messages:
    1,718
    Location:
    London, UK
    What about modern Israel though? It seems to me that Neitzsche's evaluation of the oder Israel is based on cultural reasons; whereas the modern Israel exists and survives much more due to political, economic and military reasons. How do you analyse that? Is the hatred of Israel really still due to the varying views of "special race" or is it due to entirely different reasons, like its founding and modern history?
     
  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,031
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    The actions of the state of Israel, when seen logically, are going to cause dissaproval, or even hatred if those observing them are more harmed by them (for example the Palestinians).
    The historical false ideas related to Israel however have to be overcomed (the special race, the martyr) and it has to be seen as a normal race, before it can be judged logically. :)
     
  6. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    13,121
    Location:
    Sitka District
    Jews cashed on the WW2. They acted like they were the only victims of it, and lo and behold it got them a state in an territory that is already occupied. Yeah screw the millions of Slavs that died, only the jewish people count.
    Moderator Action: Trolling - warned
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  7. C~G

    C~G Untouchable

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    4,146
    I beg your pardon?

    Interesting post varwnos, have to read it really through and think about it before I post some more comment about it.
     
  8. King Alexander

    King Alexander Universe explorer

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    3,421
    Location:
    Thessaloniki, Hellas
    Nice post, varwnos, presented with strong arguements.

    Oh well, I already had written a few paragraphs to state my opinion, but...just forget it, I won't post them. No one cares, anyway, if people are being treated worse than animals and if other people are also blown away from time to time. It's also useless to have arguements for something the USA (and England if I'm not mistaken) doesn't want to be solved, as even superpowers don't press other superpowers to enforce UN resolutions(strangely enough, the same can be said for the Cyprus occupation, despite over 170 UN resolutions that some didn't want to be enforced, but it's all over the opposite when OIL or natural gas and region control it's in the middle like at Kuweit and Iraq: there you see how quickly the UN enforces the doctrine of "we're bringing Democracy to the barbarians and we're liberating them!", which, if you repeat to yourself many times again and again, you may end up believing it!).

    God bless us all.

    Edited
     
  9. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    15,825
    Location:
    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    Interesting post, varwnos. (I'm curious if really everyone will use the word "interesting" :D)

    I agree this is not right (I mean not fair)! Unfortunately with the economical power they have, this will not be solved very soon.
     
  10. civaddict098

    civaddict098 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    455
    Location:
    USA
    In the same act the created Israel, a palestinian state was created too. But the arabs attacked Israel within 24 hours of its creation. Its the palestinians fault they dont have a state. did they realy excpect Israel to act as if nothing had happened and give them a state? If they wanted a state they should'nt have attacked Israel.
     
  11. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    5,265
    What did the Israelis expect? A welcoming party or something?

    Of course the muslim would defend their land. So they enmassed an onslaught.
     
  12. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,397
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    You're from the U.S.

    Say 50 years from now the U.S. is carved up into 2 states. China is now the sole superpower and is way overcrowded - so it decides that the western U.S. should be the new home of the Han Chinese. There are already plenty of Han Chinese living in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc. so it is felt as though the plan is at least partly justified.

    Now, as soon as the U.S. is split into two, the east attacks the newly formed Chinese state. The Chinese have superior weapons, as they are being funded by the original Chinese state, as well as the Russians. After 2 weeks of fighting most of the east is in ruins. Blockades, internment camps, refugee camps, etc. are now commonplace.

    If you were a citizen of the east, would you not complain?

    This isn't a perfect analogy, but perhaps it will help you understand the mindset of the Palestinians.
     
  13. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2001
    Messages:
    2,766
    Location:
    Phoenix AZ when I'm home
    And they lost.

    Interesting analogy. Yes, I would complain like hell...but blow myself up on a crowded Han Chinese schoolbus? Or elect a government in the east that funds and encourages other easterners to blow themselves up on western han Chinese schoolbuses?

    I am not entirely pro-Israeli, and really don't like my country's blanket support of Israel, but I have extreme hatred for cowardly terrorists.

    ~Chris
     
  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,397
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Good point. I would be against such "tactics" as well.. however, imo, a sizeable portion of the east would do whatever it takes to liberate the west. In some people's eyes nobody who died was an innocent - since they don't belong there.

    I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy - but I think it's an accurate portrayal of how some Palestinians think.
     
  15. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,031
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Hi :)

    I would like to say that this thread is a bit different from the other Israel vs Palestine threads, and ideally there should be more focus in the OP, which was writen so as to guide it to a different direction (namely a discussion of whether or not and to what degree there is a very problematic view of semitism which has added complexity in this conflict and Us reaction to it) ;)
     
  16. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    5,265
    So?

    Despite coming close to winning, they lost to a foreign invader. It doesn't justify anything Israel is doing, it is still the occupier and the oppressor.

    Let's put it this way. You have no job, your family lives in poverty, you are dependant on foreign aid etc. The only way for you to resist is bombing "soft" civilian targets because the enemy soldiers are too heavily armed and armoured.
     
  17. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    19,977
    It's not like there was a palestinian state before Israel, you know...
     
  18. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    5,265
    Irrelevant. There is one now.
     
  19. Norlamand

    Norlamand Procrastinator Rex

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,154
    Location:
    Occupied Mexico
    not for long.........
     
  20. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    19,977
    I wasn't replying to you.
    I was mostly refering to the "occupied US" anology. It is false because there is an american state, but at the time of the creation of Israel there was no palestinian state (and there has never been).
     

Share This Page