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An arabic tale (of Israel, the Usa, and us)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kyriakos, Jul 14, 2006.

  1. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

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    You didn't understand my point. You were posting in regards to the Arab onslaught upon Israel immediately following the establishment of this Jewish state. My point is the Arabs lost. It may not justify Israel's invasion of Lebanon, but it justifies Israel as a state.

    There are other more effective and better ways of gaining independence than blowing up little kids on buses and teenagers dancing at discos. All this accomplishes is the galvanizing of the holders of power and the resolve to crush this revolution. To me, these tactics are quite stupid actually. Many countries have successfully gained independence through other means.

    ~Chris
     
  2. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    In often universal morals it does not. Israel invaded muslim land, they live in stolen land they oppress the native people. All actions against Israel are completely justified. IMO

    EDit: not exactly all, but all reasonable resistance, such as terrorist strikes against soft and hard targets.
     
  3. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

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    Every nation on earth, and one point or another, has invaded others' land, and much of the current world map reflects this. Even Finland....Åland Islands and the Continuation Wars. (The seizing of Kerelia didn't last)

    America has certainly seen its share of "living in stolen land". But you will get hard argument from most everybody on this earth that the spoils of war result in stolen land.

    I don't agree with the logic of reasonable resistance you speak of, as this world would be one terrible place if everybody who percieved their homelands as stolen blew up discos and buses.

    ~Chris
     
  4. sysyphus

    sysyphus So they tell me

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    This is a good point and one alot of people shoudl keep in mind.

    Personally, I think the creation fo the state of Israel, while backed by a good moral idea, was a bad idea. But now it exists, and trying to reverse that is impossible at this point. World solutions need to be formed based on its current state, not that history is irrelevant mind you.
     
  5. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

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    Yes...also an excellent point. Quite possibly the creation of Israel has resulted in much of the conflict we see today in the region, it is also a creation which cannot be reversed. Not anymore at least.

    ~Chris
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    :bump:

    So as to return the thread back to the OP theme, here are a few more notes:

    The motif of the 'special race' is to be seen in the Usa as well, in the case of its role as world policeman, and protector of freedom. In the case of Israel it has taken the form of the prime object of protection, but this relation is based on simple thoughts and associations.
    If the nation of Israel is seen as a symbol of martyrdom, then simplistically to protect that would be an act of moral high-ground, only that in reality no nation should be seen in such a symbolic way, even moreso when the result of such a view would be to allow violence on its part.
    It should be agreed upon that no race symbolises a good element more than any other one, and it is even a greater error to try to shape one's own view of the ethicality of his opinnions, on calculations which have formed out of the observation of such illogical symbolisms.

    Moreover it is probably that many people infact cover up their deeply intolerant views, by accepting a position in favour of Israel to be- due to the aforementioned symbolic associations- as negating the very notion of intolerance. But in this way they are dangerously allowing for unchecked action by that nation, with the results that we also witness these days.

    Urging those who wish to reply to read the OP, i conclude by saying that ideally the violence between the israelis and the arabs should be seen in a more pragmatic light, dismissing any false symbolisms of semitism (there do not appear to be any significant symbolisms of the arabs, apart from some negative stereotypes).
     
  7. Princeps

    Princeps More bombs than God

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    I am of course pragmatic. US/Indian relations are very much different.
     
  8. sonorakitch

    sonorakitch Overseas hunter

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    I think the only difference is about 100 years.

    ~Chris
     
  9. Veritass

    Veritass Chieftain

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    As excellent point, and one that is being played out all over the world. The Mecha movement would have the U.S. return Caifornia to Mexico. The Basques associate more with being Basque than being Spanish, and would cecede from Spain. In all of these cases, there is a complex history including being conquered or occupied by different people. So some group of people wants to turn back the clock, and the biggest question is: How far?

    The thread title even says that this is an "Arab" tale being related. What makes it an Arab tale, and not a North African tale, or a Middle Eastern tale, or a Palestinian tale, or a Mediterranean tale? Only the group that the poster chooses to associate himself with.

    Countries and races do not exist in any objective reality. They only exist as our agreed consensus that they exist. Need an example? Twenty years ago we all agreed that there was a country called Yugoslavia. Now we agree that there is no such country, and we have created others. 75 years ago the world came to consensus that we would create an Israeli state and a Palestinian state where neither existed before. This is just an agreement made by people who conquered the Ottoman empire (among others), who conquered other people. The world used to agree that all of this land was part of the Ottoman empire, and now we agree that it is not.

    The difference is that some nations of the world -- and their leaders -- try to live within the agreements they have made; this is sometimes referred to as being "civilized." Other nations ostensibly make agreements and then break them: Kim Jong Il and nuclear weapons, Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait, and the Arab states immediately invading the new Israeli state. This is what much of the world refers to as "uncivilized."

    I, personally, think that the United Nations has run its course and is no longer useful. Enough of the world has decided that they do not need to abide by the agreements they have made, that it seems pointless to keep debating these agreements. Let the various individual countries negotiate for themselves, or form blocks such as the E.U. or NAFTA to simplify the process.

    As for the original story, I think the Jin most represents the Palestinians. Having been freed and given the ability to choose their destiny, they choose destruction of others instead of construction of their own nation.
     
  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I called it an arab tale due to the tale of the evil Jin, which is arabic :)

    This was not my intention; the evil Jin symbolises any person who is full of rage. In my view the evil Jin is equally guilty as the fisherman. Definately the urge to kill can make a strong impression, but in the end the fisherman was equally cruel towards the Jin. (effectively he killed it, since he threw it again to the sea, where it would possibly stay indefinately this time)
     

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