an East India Company question (Netherlands)

[comatosedragon]

So, the Netherlands UA is East India Company, which allows us to trade luxuries, and not lose them. I am wondering if maybe this may be a bit OP. One of the many strategies used right now is to sell off a luxury as soon as possible in the early game for a quick $240. Now, I am thinking what if you are playing a small Pangaea map with standard settings. It is not too difficult to meet the other 5 civilizations fairly quickly, and now you can sell that one luxury for $1200. That's two settlers, plus change. Later in the game this is not quite so powerful (but still very nice), but early on (like between turns 25-40), it almost seems like an instant win, and surely more OP than El Dorado, which everyone already complains about.

Should there be (or is there likely already, and we don't know about it yet) some mechanic to prevent early abuse of this? Maybe the UA doesn't become active until Economics, or something, I don't know.

And yes, I realize there is nothing forcing you to sell to every civilization early on, but that is beside the point. Kind of.

 

[Liex]

Perhaps you don't lose the luxury (it remains connected to your empire, and you don't lose the happiness bonus), but the unit (quantity) you trade get lost. So if you have only 1 unit of, let's say, wine, you can trade it without losing the happiness, but only once. When you get additional units of the same luxury, this bonus becomes marginal.

 

[AriochIV]

It's not clear that the ability allows Netherlands to trade the luxury to more than one other civ.

 

[GenjiKhan]

It's quite possible that the ai mechanic will be changed,to avoid paying full price($240),but instead,prefering to divide the debt in turns,even if it's more expensive than full price .

 

[comatosedragon]

Perhaps you don't lose the luxury (it remains connected to your empire, and you don't lose the happiness bonus), but the unit (quantity) you trade get lost. So if you have only 1 unit of, let's say, wine, you can trade it without losing the happiness, but only once. When you get additional units of the same luxury, this bonus becomes marginal.

This would make a lot of sense. Lets hope this is how it works.

It's not clear that the ability allows Netherlands to trade the luxury to more than one other civ.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. The way I have seen it worded, it seemed so, but you are right, it is still not quite clear. It's almost guaranteed not to work like in my example though. I hope.

 

[DutchJob]

Perhaps you don't lose the luxury (it remains connected to your empire, and you don't lose the happiness bonus), but the unit (quantity) you trade get lost. So if you have only 1 unit of, let's say, wine, you can trade it without losing the happiness, but only once. When you get additional units of the same luxury, this bonus becomes marginal.

Like this the UA sounds like a weak Bazaar, only plus it is there from the beginning.

 

[Babri]

Generally they should only allow per turn gold for luxuries. It solves the instant cash bonus as well the human exploiting AI by selling all resources for half of their gold & then declaring war.

 

[comatosedragon]

Generally they should only allow per turn gold for luxuries. It solves the instant cash bonus as well the human exploiting AI by selling all resources for half of their gold & then declaring war.

I agree with this, but I somehow doubt it will change.

 

[Brichals]

Generally they should only allow per turn gold for luxuries. It solves the instant cash bonus as well the human exploiting AI by selling all resources for half of their gold & then declaring war.

This would instantly make playing immortal, deity a massive challenge. Interesting idea.

 

[apocalypse105]

It isn't overpowered because if you are going to warmonger you will lose a lot of you're unique ability that is so overpowered. This makes the dutch a unqiue playstile playing peacefull and trading. Because once you are starting wars you will lose trading partners fast

And besides i am pretty sure their unique unit isn't that strong and unique tile improvement is only for marshes wich is rare.

 

[theadder]

It isn't overpowered because if you are going to warmonger you will lose a lot of you're unique ability that is so overpowered. This makes the dutch a unqiue playstile playing peacefull and trading. Because once you are starting wars you will lose trading partners fast

And besides i am pretty sure their unique unit isn't that strong and unique tile improvement is only for marshes wich is rare.

They will end up, I suppose, with a relatively large bias towards marshes. We'll have to see how much of it they spawn with, but I'd expect a good few tiles around the capital and the initial expansion area.

Assuming that a technology is required for the polder, which seems likely, that much marsh may be a temporary disadvantage if there is a lot of research time to gain access to the improvement.

 

[comatosedragon]

It isn't overpowered because if you are going to warmonger you will lose a lot of you're unique ability that is so overpowered. This makes the dutch a unique play style playing peaceful and trading. Because once you are starting wars you will lose trading partners fast

Well, I see what you are saying, but in the first 40 or so turns, how much warmongering are you actually doing? I guess you could use that $1200 to buy an army and then start warmongering, which is kind of my point. If the UA works as simply as it is worded (and it probably doesn't, but who knows), you could potentially be off to a huge advantage early on (using just about any strategy: REX, builder, or warmonger). Of course, it would make deity play different, I guess...

 

[Babri]

This would instantly make playing immortal, deity a massive challenge. Interesting idea.

Glad that u liked it.
One important thing they need to do is to teach Dutch AI is that their last luxury won't take away their happiness bonus so they shouldn't ask for crazy amount of resources & gold when u try to strike deal with their only one quantity of luxury left (unless u really pissed them).

If they do it right then Dutch will be the best friend of a warmongering human, providing them with luxuries others won't like to as they won't loose happiness bonus even if they they trade their luxury that is not in surplus.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Like this the UA sounds like a weak Bazaar, only plus it is there from the beginning.

Not really a problem if a weak ability is balanced out by a good UB like in the case of Arabia.
We don't know what the polder does. Some people have suggested that if might give you tulips as an exclusive luxury resource that no one else can get. That could be pretty strong if coupled with EAC.

 

[CanaDutch]

When I read about the UA, I was under the impression it works the way Liex suggests. The UB of Arabia would then be a lot better, but that's balanced by needing a technology for it and the fact that you have to build the UB in all your cities first.

I suppose this encourages the Dutch to go wide and secure as many resources as they can get to get the maximum benefit from their UA, which is somewhat ironic for, what's in the end a very small country.

 

[Gamewizard]

This would instantly make playing immortal, deity a massive challenge. Interesting idea.

You could just play that way anyways. Nothing says you HAVE to abuse the AI just because you can.

 

[Olleus]

CanaDutch: But that had a huge number of colonies all around the world.

 

[Liex]

I suppose this encourages the Dutch to go wide and secure as many resources as they can get to get the maximum benefit from their UA, which is somewhat ironic for, what's in the end a very small country.

But that's also historically accurate. For instance, at a given time Portugal faced a crisis of succession and its Empire was severely weakened (he was under Spanish control; Iberian Union). The Dutch eventually took over many lucrative Portuguese possessions, specially in the East Indias (spices) and Northeastern Brazil (sugar).

 

[apocalypse105]

When I read about the UA, I was under the impression it works the way Liex suggests. The UB of Arabia would then be a lot better, but that's balanced by needing a technology for it and the fact that you have to build the UB in all your cities first.

I suppose this encourages the Dutch to go wide and secure as many resources as they can get to get the maximum benefit from their UA, which is somewhat ironic for, what's in the end a very small country.

Just like england they had massives collonies and their might and wealth came from these

 

[CanaDutch]

Lol, I know, that why I said 'in the end', as in today. I'm Dutch myself you know.