Legal_My_Deagle
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2002
- Messages
- 215
Not only to fix Protective, but my solution kills three birds with two stones, as the saying goes...
Part 1) Fix Castles!
Protective gets cheap Castles, as we all should know...however at present, that is basically a worthless bonus. If they were made to be a worthwhile or even good building, that would indirectly make the Protective trait more useful, would it not? Not that many people actually make use of Castles at present, and for good reason. Any building that is only in production for a short period of the game SHOULD be a very useful building indeed to justify building it.
To make this easier to talk about, I will copy down exactly what Castle's abilities are at present in the 3.13 Civilopedia.
Castle (Requires Engineering)
Cost: 100
+1
+25%
+1 Trade Routes
50% Defense (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
-25% damage to defenses from bombardment (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
Double Production Speed for Protective Leaders
Requires Walls
Double Production Speed with Stone
Obsoletes with Economics (Except Defensive Bonus)
They come in the game too late, obsolete quickly, and don't provide enough benifit for this time frame to normally justify building one. Castles were very important and strategically powerful for their time, and so should be reflected so in the game.
So what I ask all of you: How can we make Castles better, while still balanced? It is my belief they need to be rebalanced all together.
Here are some of my suggestions, and if commenting on my suggestions, please note whether you think they are particularly helpful AND why or why not. A simple "I dont like that idea" is ambiguous and unhelpful as a comment.
1A) Allow them to be built a little earlier. The timing at which they come in to the game feels somewhat off. Not only would this make them more useful in practice, but it is strange that the same technology that unlocks them (Engineering) also unlocks the same siege unit that historically contributed to obsoleting Castles (Trebuchets) Similarly, in game, Castles do not become available until they are already on their way to becoming obsolete. As for what specific technology they should become available with: just throwing a couple possibilities out there, I would suggest either Construction or Machinery.
2A) Have them obsolete later in the technology tree. One of the reasons that Economics is too early other than simply it's placement on the technology tree is that it also unlocks Free Market. For many players, this is too important of a technology to postpone getting for long, if they do not beeline it all together. Thus, not only is this technology too early in the tree to be obsoleting Castle, but it is also most likely one of the first technologies a player will research upon reaching that point in the tree. Thus, again, as for a couple possibilities I am just throwing up in the air to start discussion for new technologies to obsolete Castle, I would suggest Steel or maybe Rifling.
3A) Increase the bonuses offered by Castle. This one is the most difficult to offer good suggestions for, but I will try to suggest some ideas that would not only make the Castle in-game more useful, but also make sense historically. Thus, here are some suggestions listed here for easier viewing: (again, if you reply, please say if you particularly like or dislike any specific suggestions)
a) Increase the Culture generated by Castle. As an important symbol of the Medieval Period, I think it would be justified to have the Culture generated by Castle increased to reflect this. And perhaps, after the Castle is "obsolete", it could lose it's usual bonuses however gain a slight increase in Cultural generation? This would reflect the massive "cultural" value and drawing power that the remaining castles of the world still have today.
b) Offer a synergy with Hereditary Rule. In the Civilopedia's words, "Castles served as administrative and judicial centers and as a seat of a lord's power." Thus, I think it would make sense to have castles offer some kind of citizen-management type of power, possibly in combination with Hereditary Rule. This could include such bonuses as a discount in city or civic maintenence (for that specific city), less war weariness, etc.
EDITED IN:
c) Offer a synergy with Serfdom. (credit for the idea to DrewBledsoe) This would both improve Castle's usefulness, but also make Serfdom more competitive with Slavery.
4A) Increase the amount of Castle costs. Wait - what? Yes, you heard me right, but I have not gone insane, I am well aware that this would be "nerfing" Castles. However consider this: I did not say we should only "buff" Castles, I said we should rebalance them. This means that all of these suggestions should be taken all at once, which in turn means that if we really are going to make Castle significantly more useful, then it should cost significantly more to build. We want Castles to be useful, not overpowered. Obviously, if none of the other changes are ever implemented, then I would not be saying we should increase the cost of Castles as they are in the game right now (3.13).
With some ideas on how to improve Castles out there, I will move on to the next part of my overall suggestion.
Part 2) Forts.
Most people agree that Forts, as they are in the game right now, are largely unhelpful. Here is their stats, according to the 3.13 Civilopedia, right now.
Fort, Tile Improvement.
+25% Tile Defense
Acts as a city for combat purposes.
How should we make it better? WELL, first of all, I think Firaxis needs to improve the Civilopedia entry for this thing. Aside from what I listed, there is nothing in it's entry. And with all of the reports of "strange" uses for Forts that I have heard, I am pretty sure I am not the only one who is not entirely sure what all Forts can be used for. Some uses I have heard of but not tested myself yet: Sea-bordering forts are navigatable for ships, forts can be used to base aircraft, and forts can be built on top of resources while still harvesting that resource. If any of these are NOT actually in the game then I would suggest they be added, just to help out Forts. But as I list my suggestions, I will assume these are in fact already in the game. However, I will do my best to make some suggestions despite the lack of reliable tested reported uses of Forts.
1B) Provide a synergy with the Protective trait. Yes, this is my weakest suggestion. The civilopedia lists Forts as acting as a city for combat purposes, but I have never heard if people could use the promotion "City Garrison" while defending on a Fort. If this bonus does NOT extend, then it should. That, or a flat bonus should be afforded to Protective civs, maybe another 25% for a Protective leader defending a Fort.
2B) Provide a healing bonus to units inside a Fort. I hate to list another suggestion that may already apply to the game, however again, if you can not already use Forts in this way then you should be able to.
3B) Give units in forts the ability to take "pot shots" at enemy units passing by. Pretty sure I remember this from Civ3, and I see no reason why this should not still be in the game, though perhaps I am unaware of some cheese or exploit this caused. So I supposed I will tenatively add this to the list.
Now, on to what I hope are some different ideas for Forts.
4B) Provide defense versus aerial or naval bombardment, and the collateral damage of siege units. Pretty self explanitory.
5B) Allow Forts to be built on Neutral areas of the map. This could obviously significantly improve the strategic usefulness of Forts, though hopefully not make them overpowered. If you actually got to build one outside the borders of a civilization you were at war with, it would serve as a forward-base of operations and a place for your injured troops to regenerate at.
Part 3) "Cheap" Bunkers and Bomb Shelters. Increase these buildings normal cost.
I won't make a list here, as I do not need a list to make it easier to read, since the suggestion is pretty straight forward. Increasing the normal cost of Bunkers and Bomb Shelters, while making them cheap buildings for a Protective civilization will effectively increase this trait's usefulness and make it a more desirable trait to possess overall.
Ok, here comes the time for me to thank you if you have actually taken the time to read all of this, and for me to ask for your (constructive!) comments whether you agree with me or not. Remember: we most likely have the same common goal of making Protective a better trait!
Part 1) Fix Castles!
Protective gets cheap Castles, as we all should know...however at present, that is basically a worthless bonus. If they were made to be a worthwhile or even good building, that would indirectly make the Protective trait more useful, would it not? Not that many people actually make use of Castles at present, and for good reason. Any building that is only in production for a short period of the game SHOULD be a very useful building indeed to justify building it.
To make this easier to talk about, I will copy down exactly what Castle's abilities are at present in the 3.13 Civilopedia.
Castle (Requires Engineering)
Cost: 100
+1
+25%
+1 Trade Routes
50% Defense (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
-25% damage to defenses from bombardment (Except vs Gunpowder-based units)
Double Production Speed for Protective Leaders
Requires Walls
Double Production Speed with Stone
Obsoletes with Economics (Except Defensive Bonus)
They come in the game too late, obsolete quickly, and don't provide enough benifit for this time frame to normally justify building one. Castles were very important and strategically powerful for their time, and so should be reflected so in the game.
So what I ask all of you: How can we make Castles better, while still balanced? It is my belief they need to be rebalanced all together.
Here are some of my suggestions, and if commenting on my suggestions, please note whether you think they are particularly helpful AND why or why not. A simple "I dont like that idea" is ambiguous and unhelpful as a comment.
1A) Allow them to be built a little earlier. The timing at which they come in to the game feels somewhat off. Not only would this make them more useful in practice, but it is strange that the same technology that unlocks them (Engineering) also unlocks the same siege unit that historically contributed to obsoleting Castles (Trebuchets) Similarly, in game, Castles do not become available until they are already on their way to becoming obsolete. As for what specific technology they should become available with: just throwing a couple possibilities out there, I would suggest either Construction or Machinery.
2A) Have them obsolete later in the technology tree. One of the reasons that Economics is too early other than simply it's placement on the technology tree is that it also unlocks Free Market. For many players, this is too important of a technology to postpone getting for long, if they do not beeline it all together. Thus, not only is this technology too early in the tree to be obsoleting Castle, but it is also most likely one of the first technologies a player will research upon reaching that point in the tree. Thus, again, as for a couple possibilities I am just throwing up in the air to start discussion for new technologies to obsolete Castle, I would suggest Steel or maybe Rifling.
3A) Increase the bonuses offered by Castle. This one is the most difficult to offer good suggestions for, but I will try to suggest some ideas that would not only make the Castle in-game more useful, but also make sense historically. Thus, here are some suggestions listed here for easier viewing: (again, if you reply, please say if you particularly like or dislike any specific suggestions)
a) Increase the Culture generated by Castle. As an important symbol of the Medieval Period, I think it would be justified to have the Culture generated by Castle increased to reflect this. And perhaps, after the Castle is "obsolete", it could lose it's usual bonuses however gain a slight increase in Cultural generation? This would reflect the massive "cultural" value and drawing power that the remaining castles of the world still have today.
b) Offer a synergy with Hereditary Rule. In the Civilopedia's words, "Castles served as administrative and judicial centers and as a seat of a lord's power." Thus, I think it would make sense to have castles offer some kind of citizen-management type of power, possibly in combination with Hereditary Rule. This could include such bonuses as a discount in city or civic maintenence (for that specific city), less war weariness, etc.
EDITED IN:
c) Offer a synergy with Serfdom. (credit for the idea to DrewBledsoe) This would both improve Castle's usefulness, but also make Serfdom more competitive with Slavery.
4A) Increase the amount of
Castle costs. Wait - what? Yes, you heard me right, but I have not gone insane, I am well aware that this would be "nerfing" Castles. However consider this: I did not say we should only "buff" Castles, I said we should rebalance them. This means that all of these suggestions should be taken all at once, which in turn means that if we really are going to make Castle significantly more useful, then it should cost significantly more to build. We want Castles to be useful, not overpowered. Obviously, if none of the other changes are ever implemented, then I would not be saying we should increase the cost of Castles as they are in the game right now (3.13). With some ideas on how to improve Castles out there, I will move on to the next part of my overall suggestion.
Part 2) Forts.
Most people agree that Forts, as they are in the game right now, are largely unhelpful. Here is their stats, according to the 3.13 Civilopedia, right now.
Fort, Tile Improvement.
+25% Tile Defense
Acts as a city for combat purposes.
How should we make it better? WELL, first of all, I think Firaxis needs to improve the Civilopedia entry for this thing. Aside from what I listed, there is nothing in it's entry. And with all of the reports of "strange" uses for Forts that I have heard, I am pretty sure I am not the only one who is not entirely sure what all Forts can be used for. Some uses I have heard of but not tested myself yet: Sea-bordering forts are navigatable for ships, forts can be used to base aircraft, and forts can be built on top of resources while still harvesting that resource. If any of these are NOT actually in the game then I would suggest they be added, just to help out Forts. But as I list my suggestions, I will assume these are in fact already in the game. However, I will do my best to make some suggestions despite the lack of reliable tested reported uses of Forts.
1B) Provide a synergy with the Protective trait. Yes, this is my weakest suggestion. The civilopedia lists Forts as acting as a city for combat purposes, but I have never heard if people could use the promotion "City Garrison" while defending on a Fort. If this bonus does NOT extend, then it should. That, or a flat bonus should be afforded to Protective civs, maybe another 25% for a Protective leader defending a Fort.
2B) Provide a healing bonus to units inside a Fort. I hate to list another suggestion that may already apply to the game, however again, if you can not already use Forts in this way then you should be able to.
3B) Give units in forts the ability to take "pot shots" at enemy units passing by. Pretty sure I remember this from Civ3, and I see no reason why this should not still be in the game, though perhaps I am unaware of some cheese or exploit this caused. So I supposed I will tenatively add this to the list.
Now, on to what I hope are some different ideas for Forts.
4B) Provide defense versus aerial or naval bombardment, and the collateral damage of siege units. Pretty self explanitory.
5B) Allow Forts to be built on Neutral areas of the map. This could obviously significantly improve the strategic usefulness of Forts, though hopefully not make them overpowered. If you actually got to build one outside the borders of a civilization you were at war with, it would serve as a forward-base of operations and a place for your injured troops to regenerate at.
Part 3) "Cheap" Bunkers and Bomb Shelters. Increase these buildings normal
cost.I won't make a list here, as I do not need a list to make it easier to read, since the suggestion is pretty straight forward. Increasing the normal
cost of Bunkers and Bomb Shelters, while making them cheap buildings for a Protective civilization will effectively increase this trait's usefulness and make it a more desirable trait to possess overall. Ok, here comes the time for me to thank you if you have actually taken the time to read all of this, and for me to ask for your (constructive!) comments whether you agree with me or not. Remember: we most likely have the same common goal of making Protective a better trait!
from me.
