1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[BTS] An interesting but slightly evil Sally map

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by earthy, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    I randomed this deity Sally map, and I've been a bit obsessed with it the last few days. I've played into the early AD's twice now with not so great results. I know some people here like the trickier kind of starts/maps, so I figured I'd share this one and maybe learn a thing or two from the pro's on how to approach this better.

    Normal settings, nhne, fractal normal size.

    The start:

    Spoiler Turn 0 :
    Sallybc4000.png


    My thoughts on the start: The stone PH is very appealing, but it risks killing 4 tiles with possible seafood. We could move warrior NE, and if there's no seafood climb the PH with the settler.. Doing that reveals this:

    Spoiler After moving :


    Can't tell if there's any more food in our BFC, but with three green unforested tiles it seems like the chance is good. At a minimum though we see a green hill 2S1E of the settler, so we could potentially do something like hunting->mining, settler at size 2, then go for fishing and try to get some early commerce with our second city.

    Sallybc4000-2.png




    Buffy save attached. Any thoughts or ideas are very much appreciated!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    That is probably the warrior move I would have done too.
    *Opening spoiler*
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Thoughts after opening spoiler:
    Spoiler :

    (Barring any finds settling on the stone)

    Perhaps early TGW could be an option here, hunting as the food source is dirt cheap so would likely be time to go hunting->mining->masonry.
    Masonry is certainly not wasted as pyramids are awesome with Saladin.

    Pay attention to demographics T1 and T3 too, see if noone start coastal, with likely fishing and masonry early info about how likely GLH could be would be nice.

     
    earthy likes this.
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    It IS slightly evil! :D

    Spoiler T49 :

    Ok, demographics do indicate that most, likely all AIs have a inland start. The one who has most water in the small 3x3 tile has just 1 water tile, which could well be a lake.
    I forgot checking T5 though, but this would give an even better idea.
    Not sure this will be relevant though, but I thought so first.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Was even more intrigued when I saw some offshore islands.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    I did go hunt->mining->masonry, probably not that good tbh.
    It's a evil setup, we find ourselves in a inland start on a tiny peninsula, capital can't help create a workboat either. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    It did look like we where isolated, and it's a good chunk of land we have too.
    We could keep ourselves safe for a long time though, by just having a warrior stationed in that bottleneck. If I understand things right, barbs won't enter then. (Not sure if it works as the bottleneck is in culture though...)
    Stuck in a situation now with low commerce and low production, but think BW is needed to get something going.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    BW reveals copper, so with map knowledge TGW is probably not that awesome.
    Could result in a relaxing and nice game though, here for example I will jump that desert hill with the warrior. If a barb is close I just go with the settler and settle 1N of clam and save the warrior.
    If no barbs are there, settler just tags along up on the hill for a slightly better city spot.
    (This plan was made prior to copper though, now 1N of clam is probably strictly better as it can share copper.)

    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    So, looks like a somewhat normal isolation game from here on. Although pyramids are obvious. :)
    Pyramids in iso does make for a easier game overall, as the representaiton happines is huge.
    Settle 1N of clam now, and 1pop whip both those workers and start chopping.

    Abit later with pyramids secured, I think it would make sense to build an axe and venture toward that sheep with 1 settler and two workers to establish a settlement there.
    Two workboats can circle around the continent for a double-seafood+marble spot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


     

    Attached Files:

    earthy likes this.
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @earthy
    Spoiler :

    How did you go about the early game?

    Main challenges I imagine are the early game commerce trap. (Going AH+BW here would probably spell disaster).
    And then handling barbarians is likely problematic, possibly getting stuck on the peninsula before pushing out with axes, and after that economic hardships and continious barb harassments?

    Long term the land looks really nice though, almost looks like that NC-mao game, but without Asoka. :)

     
  6. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    That is very similar to how I played! I did go Hunting->mining->fishing->BW->masonry though, and didn't scout nearly as well :D.. It does appear pretty evil indeed. With so much tundra TGW seems nice regardless of the copper I think. My tech path was a lot more risky, because without early TGW bronze working becomes a gamble. I think I finished researching BW @ t37, so if there was no copper then I'd be in a tough spot regarding barbarians. In terms of settlement those are the same city spots I marked as well. Later on city 6 can farm a FP below the sheep somewhere, and if there's fish around the island to the NE we can settle that probably before the sheep.

    TGW/Mids looks like the way to go here, but they do bring their own issues. It's going to be a while before we can run scientists, so the spy/engineer points could be a bit hard to deal with if we want great scientists

    p.s. did you notice that peculiar tile 3S of the eastern fish? :mischief:
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Spoiler :

    Yes, TGW/Pyramids do cause some minor problems, but nothing that can't be handled, the value of academy is already diminished with rep, and here the capital isn't stellar for bur anyway.

    With this good land, there isn't the same urgency to get super quick optics/astro.

    I didn't see that mystery tile, but that speaks for settlement 1S instead (keep fish in first ring, but accept clam in second ring. To bump chances for a borderpop and possibly pre-optics contact.

    If you happen to make more retries, do try the trick with having a warrior (or any unit really) stand in the bottleneck, I'm quite sure that stops all barbs from charging your empire.

     
  8. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    @krikav.

    Spoiler :
    I just replayed this again twice to turn 50, and following the same tech path as before I keep getting beat to TGW :lol:. This last try someone got it at T35!

    I guess masonry before BW is necessary if we really want it here. I must have got lucky my first try at this map.

    I tried the warrior trick and it seems to work nicely! I never knew about that. They won't go for the warrior?
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    They can go for the warrior, if they happen to do their random walk and stumble upon him. But as far as I know, they won't charge toward it.
     
    earthy likes this.
  10. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    regarding the earlier questions I missed @krikav

    Spoiler :
    I did first try the AH/BW route without TGW and it definitely spelled disaster. I even settled 1N of the clams before copper was improved, and then had a single archer come park outside my city, killing 1 warrior per turn until I got an axe out. Very dumb :D. My second try I went for TGW and ignored AH. It seemed a lot better, but I still felt a bit lost on what should be prioritized after ~t60 or so. One thing about this start is there's lots of possible paths to take.


    @t57(Major spoilers)

    Spoiler :

    I took Krikav's tech path b/c I think it was superior here. Not sure how I feel about 1 popping the worker in the capital though. Growth is so poor I'd almost rather just be size 4 working the forest PH. After BW I went for pottery to get some commerce going.

    On T50 Joao sent his workboat our way! What's more is he's putting zero spy points on me. Very suspicious :yup:. The bastard also has gold for trade! Where's my gold?! :cry:

    I now wonder what the best tech choice is.. Sailing would be nice for overseas traderoutes if I can get a workboat out to find him(he already has writing), but with mids incoming libraries would also be nice. The noob in me wants to go for writing because I don't know how to use G.spy to their full potential and I don't really want one, but I suspect sailing is probably the best choice.. Doesn't seem like I'm quite ready to start building libraries anyways(don't have any granaries up). Keeping closed borders with him for the time being because I don't want him to have traderoutes.

    t57.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
    krikav likes this.
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @earthy T57
    Spoiler :

    Oh nice, pre-optics contact.
    It's not certain that you can get traderoutes with him, because he might have crossed that mysterious fish-gap due to his culture reaching out to the ocean.
    You might not be able to get to him, and then he can get traderoutes but you can't. So unless you have found some other path that he could have come from, I wouldn't go sailing.
    I would be worried about him going bananas with IMP/EXP all over that lovely continent though.. :'(
    Likely bump up prio for that fish/marble spot to block him off.

    0 EPs from him, since he is 6 in peaceweight (middle of the pack) can probably only mean two things.
    Either he has someone that is in a rival religion which makes him angry (he does have a holy city) but it must be someone extreme, (very low or very high).
    Or he is at war with someone.
    Good times in either case!

    I wouldn't worry too much about a GSpy, you can just have him stick around for a while and scout (he is invisible to barbs!) and use him for a GA later on.
    Likely you will want to have CoL and run caste/rep anyway, so a GA sometime T100-T150 is probably on the table anyway.

     
    earthy likes this.
  12. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    That tile 3S of the fish has to be coast since it has 2C. Unless there's an island in between our continents that only he can access then a workboat should definitely be able to find him with the path below shouldn't it?

    fishgap.png


    Regarding the spy, would you consider settling him with rep bonus? That was what I did my first try and it felt like a mistake. I was toying with the idea of stealing techs, but I guess infiltration is better if that's the path you want to take..

    That peaceweight/religion stuff is also very helpful. I wasn't aware that factored into how they spread their points!

     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @earthy
    Spoiler :

    You are right with that coast, I had not studied it in detail.
    Should absolutely be able to get traderoutes then. (Unless that island condition you mention applies).

    I don't know if settlement makes sense or not... Perhaps. It can be difficult to gain something from the EPs.
    Might have to gift a city with some culture in it, maybe he won't accept the city.
    Having a holy city also makes espionage much better, you don't have that.
    All kinds of troubles. :)
    EPs start to become relevant much later in the game, and while it can be nice to start building up a stockpile it can also be completely useless. Say if you tech way better than him and decide you want to kill him.

    Scouting and then GA is failsafe, can't go wrong with that!


    I think @drewisfat and @Kaitzilla are two people that have alot to say about early GSpies and their possible uses.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Oh, and religion/peaceweight.
    Spoiler :

    It's just that if they put 0 EPs on you, they have someone else they really really hate. So they pretty much has to be on opposite ends of the peaceweight spectrum, war or some other strong divide.
     
  15. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    449
    Early gspy is usually the main reason to get great wall, not the secondary reason. The secondary reason is it stops barbs, and the main opportunity cost of building TGW is a few warriors, so that works out. Basically the goal is to get a free 1-2 great spies. Unless you've got a truly horrendous situation I wouldn't get TGW while isolated. You'll have nothing to do with it for a long time and infiltrating much later and having to shuttle normal spies long distance with galleys is pretty meh. Also your first three cities are reliant on three seafoods, all of which are exposed (not ocean). TGW doesn't stop barb galleys - in fact since you're not spawn busting at all (because you have TGW) you're going to get swamped by galleys quite soon.

    Also there's the mids issue - GEs are super valuable cuz they bulb some good stuff for iso games, and if we did want GLib we should probably plan on rush building it, with a low commerce start absent IND/marble. So GEs got some great things to do here, GSpies not so much. If you pop a second GSpy instead of an engineer that would be particularly devastating. Also we don't even have a chance of getting anything out of the increased GG generation in our territory. People usually ignore that benefit, but it's not nothing. Sometimes, especially with a Pro leader, it can make sense to play towards farming a couple of GGs defensively with low effort.

    At this point I'd use the GSpy to fogbust some galleys / potential barb city spots. Then I'd use him to scout Portugal if possible before using for a GA. I prefer holding onto him for a while because finding exactly where Portugal is / seeing if we get a second gspy might change our thinking. Also, since we did build TGW we *don't* want to build an axe. Settler has 2 moves and there's a clear path, so it can protect itself once the animals die :)
     
    earthy and sampsa like this.
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I tried this map and did : not great. Some thoughts :
    Spoiler :
    If you stand a unit (2nd warrior) on the tile 3W of the starting position, it will block the barbarians pathing : they will not be able to target (go to mode) your territory.
    So, your small peninsula is actually quite safe. This gives you ample time to connect copper with the capital's border pop (SIP) and wait for an axeman before going out. You can still settle 3 cities, 2 of them being good (hard to justify Animal Husbandry before Pottery).

    Being this far away from the civilized world, I think it makes sense to go for some wonders. My feeling is that the GLH and the Pyramids would offer the best results, the GLH being the most important.
    Tech path is quite strict and hard to deviate : fish, hunt, mas, min, bronze, sailing. This doesn't get the best date on the GLH. It may be better if masonry is delayed until after sailing but that could be dangerous as well.

    I don't see the appeal of settling on the stone, I'd much rather remain coastal and gain some much needed commerce.
    With another leader, perhaps.
     
    krikav likes this.
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @BornInCantaloup

    Well.. the appeal of settling on the stone is that we get a much quicker start ofcourse!
    Settlement on stone looks absolutely awesome up untill about T30, don't you agree?
    During the period T30->T50 settlement on stone is starting to look really bad.

    I at least, have difficulties making these mid/long term calls regarding commerce, and often dig myself down into these commerce holes.
    What queues and pointers do you use, to spot these troubles so far in advance that you can stay clear of them..?
     
  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I don't know, I scouted 1S to reveal tiles to the west. Didn't see anything much.
    Then the question is : do you settle on the stone with only a deer for support ? What do you do with it ? Go fast into nothing is not good.
    So, Stonehenge... If I build the Stonehenge from t0, I want to build the Temple of Artemis and Pyramids, too : go real on OCC. But I don't see it happening without the IND trait (so, with De Gaulle, I might settle on the stone).
    So, you're left with Mysticism and The Wheel (at least we've got The Wheel). All forests, no commerce. Coast in all directions, so, probably more coastal cities (I read you mentioned that having an inland capital was troublesome for city 2). Fish+Hunt can be researched while doing a 15 turns worker. It adds up.

    I didn't really "stay out of troubles". I fell for the Great Wall on my first try. T47 :
    Spoiler :


    I can whip it, sure, but then Mecca is size 2, bye-bye Great Lighthouse. So I stopped there. I hadn't even produced a second warrior, hum... :rolleyes:
     
    earthy and krikav like this.
  19. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Better (t62) :
    Spoiler :


    Not sure what's up with the Great Wall going so late.
    Haven't done the quarry, yet.
    Went Fish, Hunt, Min, Bronze, Sailing, Masonry, Pottery.
    Medina whipped axe into settler from 4 to 2 to 1.
    Mecca loses food this turn because I lacked 3 hammers.

    Bettering more (t75) :
    Spoiler :
    Now with trade routes :


    Seriously, guys, are you building the Great Wall in some jungle city ?
    I might have to put some hammers into it myself.
    Settlers are late. 2 axes secure/explore the west.

    Unlimited betterment (t83) :
    Spoiler :
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
    krikav likes this.
  20. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,122
    Gender:
    Female
    Great Wall (finished) is indeed bad here, as Krikav wrote earlier you can block barbs out 3w of Mecca ;)
     

Share This Page