An Ottoman Europe?

TopGearFanatic

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I'll start by openly admitting I do not know a lot about the Ottoman Empire. Moving on, I am curious to know if there are any scenarios in which the Ottoman Empire could have conquered all of Western Europe? If not, what is the farthest they could've gotten with their best chances?
 
Moving on, I am curious to know if there are any scenarios in which the Ottoman Empire could have conquered all of Western Europe?
Not realistic ones.
TopGearFanatic said:
If not, what is the farthest they could've gotten with their best chances?
Historically, the Ottoman military's logistical limit in Europe was juuuuust about where they ended up being stopped, on the far edges of Hungary. Changing that would have required political and social reforms (in addition to the obvious military ones) that probably would've been counterproductive.
 
as in... France/Spain/etc? don't see how. Logistics would kill them way before.

Leaving aside the impossibility of conquering a territory ultra uber extremely heavily fortified like W Europe. Or well, the total economical ineffectiveness that such an act would presume even assuming logistics were present.

"Mano a mano", in the open, I'd say they were quite potent around XV-XVIth century, but they couldn't teleport around. And when they were at their peak, there was the "minor" Safavid problem at their peak too behind their backs.
 
They weren't ever likely to get further than they did. Maybe they could have held bits and pieces of Austria and Italy for brief periods, but they'd be more along the lines of long-lasting raids than an actual occupation. The possibility of creating a few more puppet-states in Eastern Europe exists though. Unfortunately for the Ottomans, they ran headlong into several states - Poland-Lithuania, Austria, Russia - that were too big and powerful to be adequately cowed, unlike the nations, such as Hungary and the Crimean Tatars, who they already possessed the capacity to overrun.
 
the only way that could have worked is to go maritime and real serious at that . Logistics of moving armies onland was not really solved until the invention of railroads and , maybe just maybe , a naval approach could have kept the Ottomans growing .
 
Before Lepanto the Ottoman fleet was pretty strong i think and and even after it too.

The Ottoman fell somewhat behind in the naval field after 1600 or thereabouts.

Anyway, it was unlikely the Ottomans would enter the Atlantic in force with Spain in the way. The Ottomans did try to beat the Portuguese in the Indian Ocean but as it happened it didn't work out and both were eclipsed by the Dutch and the English in the 17th century. And the Ottomans' most serious threats - Persia, Austria, Russia, Poland - are all land powers.
 
They almost did take Vienna in 1683, only to be thwarted by the arriving Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial relief forces.

What would have happened if they did? A lot of people seemed to think that Europe was "saved" that day. I'm no expert so I'm really asking more than anything..
 
They almost did take Vienna in 1683, only to be thwarted by the arriving Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial relief forces.

What would have happened if they did? A lot of people seemed to think that Europe was "saved" that day. I'm no expert so I'm really asking more than anything..
Actually, they didn't really have much chance of taking Vienna, and the battle was already lost before either the Poles or the relief forces arrived. But that's inconsequential to your question anyway.

If the Ottomans had succeeded in either of their seiges of Vienna - they did it once before, if I remember correctly - they'd have likely been pushed back very shortly anyway. They couldn't really put enough troops into Austria to hold it from the inevitable counterattack. Even assuming vastly different political structures in Germany, someone was going to try and hit back against an invading foreign juggernaut. I really think the Ottomans had already reached their limit of geographical expansion, at least in Europe. Expanding further into Africa was possible, but Europe and Mesopotamia were more important, so that's what was focused upon.
 
They almost did take Vienna in 1683, only to be thwarted by the arriving Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial relief forces.

What would have happened if they did? A lot of people seemed to think that Europe was "saved" that day. I'm no expert so I'm really asking more than anything..

Well I can't imagine that the Ottomans would have held on to Vienna or continued through Austria much longer before they suffered some sort of defeat to the Poles and Imperial forces, and even if they somehow had managed to hold Austria, I could imagine fear of further advances would put together a large army within the Holy Roman Empire and then a counterattack to retake Austria would have likely driven the Ottomans back.
 
I would imagine that the Ottomans could have conquered and held on to parts of Southern and central Italy for some time. They took Otranto easily and the French invasion of Italy about a decade later showed that the Italian states could be easily pushed over given a sizable army force. Supply and reinforcement would not be that impossible seeing that the boot of Italy is only 75km away from Albania.

Then again, Venice would surely retaliate like they did to France. I suppose the Ottomans could have arrange a deal. Exchange them trade rights for non-retaliation, leave North Italy for them. But France wouldn't like that.

Interesting, a long-term Ottoman Apulia seems plausible.
 
a land approach to conquer entire Europe as per OP is not feasible until railroads or splitting the empire into two , like the Romans did . ı would doubt it would work in the end . On the other hand a naval approach would have denied the Indian Ocean to Europeans , would nibble away from their holdings here and there and it would be a long haul , maybe 2 - 3 centuries to invade from Gibraltar to Murmansk .
 
I would imagine that the Ottomans could have conquered and held on to parts of Southern and central Italy for some time. They took Otranto easily and the French invasion of Italy about a decade later showed that the Italian states could be easily pushed over given a sizable army force. Supply and reinforcement would not be that impossible seeing that the boot of Italy is only 75km away from Albania.

Then again, Venice would surely retaliate like they did to France. I suppose the Ottomans could have arrange a deal. Exchange them trade rights for non-retaliation, leave North Italy for them. But France wouldn't like that.

Interesting, a long-term Ottoman Apulia seems plausible.
It's far too easy to interdict the routes from the Balkans to most Apulian ports. It's also on the wrong side of Greece from most Ottoman naval bases - easy to get raiders there, hard to maintain a more long-term supply and communications chain. And unlike the Venetian holdings in the Aegean, there aren't a whole lot of Apulian ports situated on ground where it's nightmarishly difficult to campaign, or out on hard-to-attack promontories. I don't really see it. I also don't really see the point, but whatever.

Plus, it's not as though the Ottomans would be fighting Minor Italian State Bukkake, they'd be dealing with either the French (!) or the Aragonese-Castilians (!!), whichever one of them came out on top in south Italy (probably the Aragonese).
 
And both of those were first-rate powers in their own right, more than capable of holding their own against the Ottomans. As I said above, the Ottomans got somewhat unlucky by running headlong into the only powers in their region that could actually put up a fight against them on pretty much every front, eliminating any possibility for expanding their influence beyond their natural geographic expansion.
 
It's far too easy to interdict the routes from the Balkans to most Apulian ports. It's also on the wrong side of Greece from most Ottoman naval bases - easy to get raiders there, hard to maintain a more long-term supply and communications chain. And unlike the Venetian holdings in the Aegean, there aren't a whole lot of Apulian ports situated on ground where it's nightmarishly difficult to campaign, or out on hard-to-attack promontories. I don't really see it. I also don't really see the point, but whatever.

Ports can be built. So can long-term supply and communication chains. As for the point, controlling the mouth of the Adriatic seems important. As is extending Ottoman control further into the Mediterranean. And Mehmed II surely wanted it for something. You don't send 18,000 men on a raid.

Plus, it's not as though the Ottomans would be fighting Minor Italian State Bukkake, they'd be dealing with either the French (!) or the Aragonese-Castilians (!!), whichever one of them came out on top in south Italy (probably the Aragonese).

Firstly, Minor Italian State Bukkake. Heh heh, good description.
Secondly, yeah probably. France/Aragon would probably fight back. What about an attack on Otranto and Naples when Suleiman and Francis had that 'alliance'? They could split Italy.
 
Actually, they didn't really have much chance of taking Vienna, and the battle was already lost before either the Poles or the relief forces arrived. But that's inconsequential to your question anyway.

I disagree. The mine that might've taken down enough of the fortifications to allow the Ottomans to just walk in three days before the battle proper was disarmed at the last minute, in true Hollywood fashion. The siege was a huge coin toss; the battle itself less so, but not unwinnable.
 
Ports can be built. So can long-term supply and communication chains. As for the point, controlling the mouth of the Adriatic seems important. As is extending Ottoman control further into the Mediterranean. And Mehmed II surely wanted it for something. You don't send 18,000 men on a raid.
Generally, large ports to service large invasion fleets don't just spring up out of nowhere based solely on imperial fiat. Plus, the far side of Greece is on the wrong side of mountains...the infrastructure would've been a several-decade investment at least, and no sultan would give a damn about that.

I doubt that control of Apulia would've permitted "control" of the Adriatic entrance. Controlling a coastline is one thing - you can identify the beaches and have a reasonable shot at keeping an eye on most of them, and rotating patrols mean you're aware of an amphibious invasion pretty quickly and, once identified, it can be destroyed. It's different when you've got a stretch of water to try to close to traders; if they don't have to maintain a more or less continuous link, all they really have to do is zip past and keep going. Unless you're talking a ridiculously narrow bit of water like the Belts, it's basically impossible to "control" trade through there before, oh, the twentieth century or so.

Besides, most of the interesting stuff that went into the mouth of the Adriatic that couldn't go any other way ended up passing through Ottoman territory at a different point anyway. :p

I think that it's impossible to divine Mehmed II's intentions for the Otranto invasion; he certainly didn't take enough troops to launch a full-scale attack, but he may have intended to follow up later. The period chroniclers are contradictory on his purpose. I certainly wouldn't rule out a raid or a show of force; the size of the expedition might simply have been a miscalculation (one way or another). What was weird is that he took a relatively large number of ground troops, but the number of ships he took was pretty small, and Fatih Sultan Mehmed definitely knew that his fleet couldn't beat the Venetians in a stand-up fight away from the Aegean. And the Venetians would come out against a full-scale invasion. I think that a plausible explanation is that either it was always intended to be a razzia and he miscalculated the number of troops needed for a show of force, or that he was thinking about a full-scale invasion but realized partway through that he had no chance of doing such a thing in the face of the Venetian navy, and so the whole thing turned into a razzia.
aronnax said:
Firstly, Minor Italian State Bukkake. Heh heh, good description.
Secondly, yeah probably. France/Aragon would probably fight back. What about an attack on Otranto and Naples when Suleiman and Francis had that 'alliance'? They could split Italy.
Possible, but unlikely. Francois never came close to the Neapolitan kingdom; his Italian operations were confined to Lombardy most of the time, and he was dealt with by the application of north Italian resources. As it was, combined Franco-Ottoman naval operations were...well, they had some successes, mostly because they didn't try doing anything ambitious like launching a massive amphibious invasion of southern Italy. ;)
 
I may be over-simplifying it, but I doubt the Ottomans could have lasted in Southern Italy, simply because of the proximity to the Pope.
 
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