An rpg question

[Maniacal]

I mistakingly thought GoG had Vampire: The Masquerade, and bought it. Turned out it was actually some weird sequel... ****!

Icewind Dale Complete is now out on GoG!
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/icewind_dale_complete

 

[MajKira]

What most rocked me was FinalFantasy VII
And I like other PS2 rpgs like Tales of Legendia, Xenosaga III mostly but also MMO Aion
or Dragonquest 8, FinalFantasy XII, or PC were Kotor I,II, Jade Empire, Divine Divinity

 

[MajKira]

The major difference is rather simple : "console RPG" are, in fact, simply not RPG for the overwhelming part. They are adventure games. You don't have any meaningful choices to play a role or influence the story, as such you can not be, well, role-playing.
It's just that people have taken the habit of calling "RPG" anything that includes XP and gear (seeing Diablo being called a RPG just makes me both laugh and cry...).

Notice that it doesn't mean they are bad. Japanese adventure games have often very interesting story and characters, and I'm a bit fan of Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy and the like. But they aren't RPG.

Niot agreeed, since western style rpgs are not soo much more influenceble in playing a role and destine the story. Anime graphic is much more livelier than humourlesser western graphic. The development of JRPGs went parallel to those on westernized countries who claim to be real rpg maker. But I can agree to some point to make a distict difference between a rpg and a JRPG.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Niot agreeed, since western style rpgs are not soo much more influenceble in playing a role and destine the story. Anime graphic is much more livelier than humourlesser western graphic. The development of JRPGs went parallel to those on westernized countries who claim to be real rpg maker. But I can agree to some point to make a distinct difference between a rpg and a JRPG.

You aren't really refuting his points. The graphics have nothing to do with whether or not a game is a role-playing game. You agree that the games are distinct. Yes, they are distinct, the "western style" make you play a role by making a certain number of decisions while tweaking your character. The Japanese style makes you kind of slightly interact with a story while tweaking your character. You could rather easily make a Final Fantasy 3 movie, or a Crono Trigger movie. There is a story that happens the way it does every time you play the game. The story is already written.

Making a movie from The Witcher or Oblivion would require a lot more writing for the movie writers simply because they are worlds in which the player decided of the story.

All they share is some level of character tweaking, and that doesn't define the RPG.

This isn't even a judgement on JRPGs, they are good too. It's just a fact about what they are.

 

[SuperJay]

Baldur's Gate II, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Mass Effect 1 & 2, etc. BioWare knows.

And yeah, Diablo 1 & 2 were awesome games, but they aren't really RPGs.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Baldur's Gate II, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Mass Effect 1 & 2, etc. BioWare knows.

And yeah, Diablo 1 & 2 were awesome games, but they aren't really RPGs.

You're calling Mass Effect 2 an rpg, but not Diablo 1&2 ?

 

[MajKira]

You aren't really refuting his points. The graphics have nothing to do with whether or not a game is a role-playing game. You agree that the games are distinct. Yes, they are distinct, the "western style" make you play a role by making a certain number of decisions while tweaking your character. The Japanese style makes you kind of slightly interact with a story while tweaking your character.

I just want to point out why I like more Final Fantasy JRPG than Oblivion WRPG because of graphic for example, becuz I like Anime more than westerngraphic.
I like more JRPG, becuz you dont make such decision as like in Kotor or Jade Empire but stories I find in certain JRPGs definitely better. Giving more of an atmosphere to me to get into than many WRPGs like MassEffect or Fallout. But I like many WRPGs too like Kotor, BaldursGate and so on. But not the mixed typed genres.

You could rather easily make a Final Fantasy 3 movie, or a Crono Trigger movie. There is a story that happens the way it does every time you play the game. The story is already written.

Making a movie from The Witcher or Oblivion would require a lot more writing for the movie writers simply because they are worlds in which the player decided of the story.

But not every WRPG lets you make an own character at beginning of a game but righ most Jrpgs dont give opportunity to make own character yes the story is more important in JRPGs case.
Yeah maybe its so that you can make a JRPG movie easier than a WRPG movie, and that you can shape the world with your own will in witcher or oblivion. But I dont liked them both to play. I dont think they are better rpgs!!! or gothic, two worlds (I dont want to at all)

All they share is some level of character tweaking, and that doesn't define the RPG.
This isn't even a judgement on JRPGs, they are good too. It's just a fact about what they are.

I know, that JRPGs have mostly all provided characters and linear story like a movie but I like them anyhow. And what rpgs are I know too, I also know pencil&paper rpgs and former rpgs like Pool of Radiance from SSI 1988 or NeverwinterNights,PlanescapeTorment, but dont like personally Elderscrolls or witcher or mass effect or fallout (fallout 1 and 2 were ok but buggy)

 

[Rub'Rum]

MajKira, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you are "defending" JRPGs as if they had been attacked by Akka and me. And they haven't. We just don't really think they belong much in the RPG category. Still, many are quality games nevertheless.

They do have some character statistics or skill or inventory decisions to make sometimes, that's mostly why they are categorized as RPGs, but that's not really what makes an RPG when you sit down and think about it.

 

[Akka]

I just want to point out why I like more Final Fantasy JRPG than Oblivion WRPG because of graphic for example, becuz I like Anime more than westerngraphic.

In other words, you completely missed my point (which was making a difference between "role-playing games" and "adventure games" and simply jumped in the defense of your favourite genre.
Which is a double fail, because not only, as said above, you miss the point, but also because I actually never attacked the quality of the Japanese games. If you actually look, I even made a special ending paragraph saying that it doesn't mean they are bad games.

Just for the record, I'm also a HUGE anime fan, and I also MUCH prefer the anime graphical design to the western one.
But that's NOT THE POINT. I was simply saying they are not RPG, but adventure game, I never said that I didn't like them nor that they were bad game, and I even specifically pointed this out in the very post you quoted.

It pays to actually read a post before answering it, you know, and not simply having a knee-jerk "let's jump to the defense of something that wasn't even being attacked".

You're calling Mass Effect 2 an rpg, but not Diablo 1&2 ?

Because you really don't see a difference between both ?

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Because you really don't see a difference between both ?

Mass Effect 2 is as much an rpg as Tyrian with a storyline is. Diablo (as simple as it is) seems much more complex.
(don't get me wrong - ME2 is great )

 

[Maniacal]

Mass Effect has a lot more choices and very different gameplay than Diablo.

 

[Akka]

Mass Effect 2 is as much an rpg as Tyrian with a storyline is. Diablo (as simple as it is) seems much more complex.
(don't get me wrong - ME2 is great )

Something tells me that you are mixing "fighting" and "role-playing".

 

[MajKira]

In other words, you completely missed my point (which was making a difference between "role-playing games" and "adventure games" and simply jumped in the defense of your favourite genre.
Which is a double fail, because not only, as said above, you miss the point, but also because I actually never attacked the quality of the Japanese games. If you actually look, I even made a special ending paragraph saying that it doesn't mean they are bad games.

well now you abuse me to certain grade I feel like soo
In term of adventure games refers firstly to the old text interpreting adventures then the later popularized point and click adventures. But to similarizing JRPGs with adventures is not proper. You find deep stories in jrpgs, high quality fareastern special anime graphics and also many alchemy typed to do much with the items you can get.
The only distinct difference from what called real rpgs and jrpgs you two pointed out properly and I admit to it. Fixed strory and characters. But its more a matter of taste in prefering mass effect series or final fantasy series for example. But also in more freee generated rpgs you find many fixed aspects of story while gaming.

Just for the record, I'm also a HUGE anime fan, and I also MUCH prefer the anime graphical design to the western one.
But that's NOT THE POINT. I was simply saying they are not RPG, but adventure game, I never said that I didn't like them nor that they were bad game, and I even specifically pointed this out in the very post you quoted.

Nobody thinks of jrpgs as bad games I never was to point it out to what you state Im doing!! But again same argument of jrpgs being adventures. Not proper.

It pays to actually read a post before answering it, you know, and not simply having a knee-jerk "let's jump to the defense of something that wasn't even being attacked".

Kneejerk!!! Yes not true Im not defending Im discussing

Diablooo
diablo series were hack slay rpgs rather simply fighting but addictive

 

[MajKira]

A role-playing game (aka RPG) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players have the freedom to improvise; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the game. (from wikipedia)

What exactly should match to all rpgs whether from Fareast or Farwest or in between

 

[Rub'Rum]

Personally, I find the wikipedia article you posted there defeats your own point. I'm not sure how you have freedom to improvise or how your choices shape the direction and outcome of 99% of so-called JRPGs.

 

[PredatorFett]

Pokemon Diamond for the DS, definitely. Basically any 4th gen pokemon game for the DS is outstanding.

 

[MajKira]

Personally, I find the wikipedia article you posted there defeats your own point. I'm not sure how you have freedom to improvise or how your choices shape the direction and outcome of 99% of so-called JRPGs.

not less than mass effect or elder scrolls or fallout, it all falls under formal system of rules and guidelines
all computed rpgs tends to get you in a linear way becuz you cannot create overwhelming different ways anyway game would get too big.
Well FF13 has 40gig in blueray but only becuz of graphic not of a big way story could go

in that way a big shame for FF13!

rpgs are rpgs, even you could call it graphic adventures but jrpgs you cannot call them improperly adventures in general, adventures neglects inner character improvements and focuses in other things like point click adventures do or in former times text interpreter
and jrpgs in general DO focus on inner character exchanges between the story characters, you feel like being in interchange through interactions you experience in the world

All RPG (Role-Playing Games) developed for Sony's PlayStation 2 (PS2) console. This list is still under construction, and may become quite massive, due to the huge amount of RPG titles for this platform.

Final Fantasy X Final Fantasy X-2 -FF12
Kingdom Hearts I,II
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille Zur Macht, II, III
Dark Cloud 1,2 - Dark Chronicle
Dot Hack 1 to 4, Dot hack Gu 1 to 3
Disgaea: Hour of Darkness,2 Cursed Memories (strategical)
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 1,2 (points west)
champions norrath 1, 2 (d&d west)
Shadow Hearts 1,2: Covenant,3 New World
Suikoden III,IV,V
Wild Arms 3,4,5, alter code F
Rogue Galaxy
Magna Charta (korean!!)
Odin Sphere
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Persona III, Persona IV, Devil summoner saga I,II, digital devil saga I,II
Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria
Grandia III
Radiata Stories
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana,2,3, Mana Khemia 1,2
Ars Tonelico 1, 2
Tales of the Abyss, Tales of Legendia
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Unlimited SaGa
Phantasy Star Universe, Ambition of Illuminus

 

[Rub'Rum]

not less than mass effect or elder scrolls or fallout, it all falls under formal system of rules and guidelines

Yes, a lot less. I really don't see how you can even compare.

all computed rpgs tends to get you in a linear way becuz you cannot create overwhelming different ways anyway game would get too big.

It's like in the Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper game. Even in these games, ultimately, the Dungeon Master usually manages to steer the players onto a general plot line. From the moment the characters started their adventures at level 1, the Dungeon Master knew what he wanted: at level 20 or 30, the players were going to fight a big bad monster or dude (the devil, I dunno, something) at the end and save the world (well, that's just an example). So are you going to call this linear? No, because the Dungeon Master gives a lot of freedom to the players in the way they reach that point. Every skill challenge usually has the same end-result: the characters get past the obstacle, however, their choices and their failures can make getting past this a lot more difficult. Some non-player character may die, or turn on them, depending.

Anyway, the pen and paper game illustrates the perfect example of what an RPG is. And that model is what computer RPGs try to replicate. You know, choices and branching, other consequences to failure other than having to reload your game. Japanese "RPGs", well 99% of them don't offer this. So they're not RPGs.

rpgs are rpgs, even you could call it graphic adventures but jrpgs you cannot call them improperly adventures in general, adventures neglects inner character improvements and focuses in other things like point click adventures do or in former times text interpreter

Again, the only thing that remotely gets them close to an RPG is that you have to sort of select skills and you level up. I'm not saying they're just adventure games like point and click. They're a category of their own, they just can't be put in the same general area as games like the Elder Scrolls or KOTOR.

and jrpgs in general DO focus on inner character exchanges between the story characters, you feel like being in interchange through interactions you experience in the world

They focus on that in the same way a movie does. I have nothing to do with the interactions.

In case it isn't clear yet, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III (VI) are some of my favorite games of all time. And Chrono Trigger is one of the few JRPGs that sort of warrants the RPG monicker. All Final Fantasy games don't anymore.

 

[MajKira]

If they arent rpgs why are they called it then and not adventures,??

Answer: becuz they indeed are rpgs. Better rpgs then your favourite west so called rpgs
What do you not understand? I explained already all things in full clearness!!

well to claim now to love ChronoTrigger und FF to sixth installment and especially FF3 and to claim to be a big anime fan makes you not better in the discussion

NOT really better stand to gain for you

sorry DUDE

 

[Rub'Rum]

I was not trying to make myself more credible by saying that Chrono Trigger and FF3 (add Earthbound to the list too) were some of my favorite games, I was once again trying to remind you that I was not attacking "jRPGs", because I do like them. But you seem to fail to understand that and you accuse me of favoritism or something.

And I'm not sure why a majority of people naming them RPGs somehow makes it a valid point. There was a point in history where most people called the Earth "flat" too.

Anyway, your only argument now is "I explained everything in full clearness". Well so did I.

This argument sounds like it's over.