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Ancient Egyptian Priests

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by pi-r8, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. Yoshi1

    Yoshi1 Warlord

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    hehe...well iam not as good as someone like Kossin, but i won my fair share of Deity games.
    I disagree a bit @TheTeam, i play at my best when iam motivated for doing creative things (not the trait :p).
    And i know i prolly won't finish a game if i go on brainstorming.

    "Understanding the numbers", ok i know all the basic stuff like "i want 12/24 food stored when that granary is finished to get max growth" and when to use the whip or power settle...i know those things which i consider really important...doesn't mean i couldn't learn stuff still when ppl like Kossin, Grashopa etc. play, no doubt about that.

    Buuut...most maths you need to do come along as a game goes on. I don't see how you can make a discussion about "is it better to only use the priests, or scientists too?". Civ allows more than 1 way to be succesful, and for me i try to always add a bit of fun to how i play.
     
  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    I do not think anyone would disagree with doing what you consider fun Yoshi, but consider the audience that you are razzing on for being "too nerdy." I mean, you are posting on CivFanatics Forums...
     
  3. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Doing math is really just a way to save time. The alternative is to experiment by playing lots and lots of different games, and just seeing what works better most of the time, but it's a whole lot faster and clearer to just do a little arithmetic. Or I guess you can let others do the math and just memorize whatever answers they give you, but then you'll never really understand it for yourself or come up with new strategies.
     
  4. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    A variation on this that I thought of is to play as Pericles (CRE/PHI) and use the cheap libaries to make a super fast great scientist.
     
  5. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    That's the great thing about Pericles, and why he's so great with food - he can get the academy and philo bulb faster than any other civ, I think (Louis can be faster to the library, but not being philo slows down the GP generation).

    Then, he can use pacifism to get another one to bulb education, and guess what - half price universities!
     
  6. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Hmm that's interesting. I've never tried to get philo that fast, but I suppose with pericles it might be worth it. (why does Louis get the first library faster? I would think Suryavarman would be the fastest to that) But then if you want a really fast education beeline, you'll need to do more than just generate 1 scientist to bulb education- anyone can do that. If that's your plan, you might as well go all out and generate 3, so you can bulb paper and double bulb education. But then if you're doing all that, it will be hard to get 6 cities in time to get oxford when you research education.

    I'll have to expore that option more. I think one of the best features of PHI is the cheap universities, for a faster oxford university.
     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Cre/PHI is a serious power cheap building combo.
     
  8. SillyGoat

    SillyGoat Warlord

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    Louis starts with Agg/Wheel and so can tech AH->Writing out of the gate.
    Perky starts with Fishing and Hunting the two worst starting techs in the game.


    The best feature of PHI isn't just the cheap unis and early Oxford, it's the fact that you can get to University faster than anyone else (via early settled GS, Acadamy and bulbs). If a more militant approach is called for, a Philo civ can get to Construction insanely fast (via an early Math bulb).
     
  9. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Louis can also tech a fast pottery-writing as an alternative, although AH is nice for the military benefit as well as possible food improvement.

    To pi-r8, at higher levels, getting the 3 early scientists is huge - one for the academy, one to bulb philo (huge trade bait - that 1 tech can often be worth 4-5 more plus gold by trading it around - the religion is just a side benefit). The third bulbs a part of education (I usually self-tech paper and the rest of edu.

    That means earlier liberalism, earlier cheap universities, and a whole set of great trade bait techs. Education and lib are huge for backfilling, which is needed when trying to deal with immortal AIs.
     
  10. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Pericles can also tech directly AH to writing, as long as he doesn't need to farm anything.

    And, if you're going to settle a GS and use another for an academy, you won't really be getting education faster than anyone else- most other traits offer a similiar bonus in getting there. Especially if you're also trying to expand to six cities, to get oxford. Also, I really doubt that it's ever worth bulbing math to get super fast catapults, because it still takes a long time to tech masonry/construction, and you won't have enough production to really make use of them. And again, anyone can do that almost as fast, phi just saves you 8 turns on the first great person.

    Sure, I know all about the philo bulb trade and bulbing education. But I was talking about getting an extremely early GS and bulbing philo as soon as possible (maybe with the second GS after settling the first), and then using THREE bulbs to get education in record time. That could get you there much faster than you'd need to be first, even on deity.
     
  11. Nick Carpathia

    Nick Carpathia Unleash the HAARP

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    You still need Civil Service or Feudalism to get Paper, so means you'll need GM or GProphet GPPs. A reliable source of GM GPPs is available from Currency or Code of Laws onwards, but bulbing paper feels a bit wasteful. I'd rather save my GS to get the full value out of the bulbing education.
     
  12. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    :D ROFL !!! See, this is why we read the forums too. The great since of humor we have here. :)
    Can, I quote you on that?
    :)

    Sorry Yoshi, gotta laugh. :)
     
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    Getting an early Obelisk and hiring early Priest Specialists in order to generate settled Great Prophets can work well in a One City Challenge game. In that kind of a game, you do not have to balance the potential loss of a 6+ Food/Hammer/Commerce yield square from not settling an additional City, since you are unable to settle any additional Cities!


    For example, in a Game of the Month game, WOTM 25, I did exactly that--I got out some early Great Prophets which were settled and which allowed me, as Ramesses II, to Wonder-spam.

    Ramesses II's Industrious Trait is just as good as Philosophical (perhaps even better) for this approach, since you can get additional value out of each Hammer that a settled Great Prophet generates, while the additional Wonders that you will build can help to compensate for the Great People Points missed-out on not being Philosophical.

    The fact that the Wonders do something beyond giving you Great People Points is just the icing on the cake. ;)
     
  14. SillyGoat

    SillyGoat Warlord

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    Or road anything or build chariots for early barb defence. Hunting and fishing are rarely required in the early game and in those instances where they are worthwhile, they are significantly cheaper than wheel and Ag.

    Yes you will. A phillo leader will get their 3rd gs about the same time as an non-philo leader will, but will have be faster at clearing out the prerequisites to the Philosophy bulb.


    It takes even longer to get masonry and construction if you have to spend beakers on Math. It isn't always the optimal play, depending on the map it may be better to make the longer term investment in settling/building an Acadamy.

    And if you know how to make use of the whip and the chop, the production to get 8 cats out of four cities 3-4 turns after construction is easy.
     
  15. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    I'm not saying you should do that every single game- you couldn't do that as Louis either! You're giving up mining and bronze working which is a pretty big drawback. But, if the circumstances are right, it's possible, and it's just as fast for either, but then Pericles has a bigger reward from getting there (getting the scientist much faster).

    This is too simplistic. Of course philosophical helps, an extra scientist is better than nothing. But what I said was, other traits would help about equally as much. Spritual saves multiple turns of anarchy, expansive saves multiple turns building workers and granaries, and financial just researches everything faster. The others might not help as much, but still.

    The real question remains, is it worthwhile using scientists to bulb paper and double bulb education? It's clearly faster than settling- paper is about 1000 beakers on deity, so it would take 100 turns for the settled scientist to match that. But the settled scientist might be better in the long term, especially with the hammer.

    It's not so easy to get 4 cities big enough to whip 2 catapults, while also focusing so much on getting construction ASAP. Then you'll still need regular units, too. I'm not totally opposed to this idea, but I'll have to see it in action or see some numbers before I believe that it's really worth it.
     

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