(Ancient Greek)

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I have recently completed my elementary studies in Ancient Greek, and with the permission of the mods, would like to post this study and review thread, in the vein of other foreign language threads.

With this knowledge in hand, I've done some minor translating. Mostly I've done some NT passages, with the discovery that it actually makes more sense in Greek than it does in English translation. I sometimes come across paraphrased passages that are clearly meant to impart a certain theological slant that isn't necessarily in the original text.

I plan to do others, here and there, without any aim other than general enrichment.

τι επιβουλευεσθ'αναγιγνεσθαι; (What do you advise to read?)

 

[spryllino]

εγωγε μεν γε τουτην γλοσσην οιος τ’ειμι μανθανειν, ουκ δε βιβλον εν νῳ εχω · τοδε λεξω δε.

(subscribing; I can’t think of a book though.)

 

[Danielion]

The Iliad and the Odyssey. I've never read those in the original tongue (for I can't read Ancient Greek). Great how the first word of European literature known to us starts with the word 'wrath' (μῆνι&#957. Now that's lovely.

 

[shortguy]

In the semester of intermediate Greek I took, the class read parts of Xenophon's Hellenica and Plato's Apology. Both of those are pretty good suggestions for someone fairly new to the language.

Homer is bad choice. In fact I'd recommend that you avoid verse initially; it can be quite a bit harder.

 

[Methos]

With this knowledge in hand, I've done some minor translating. Mostly I've done some NT passages, with the discovery that it actually makes more sense in Greek than it does in English translation. I sometimes come across paraphrased passages that are clearly meant to impart a certain theological slant that isn't necessarily in the original text.

What NT passages did you translate and how were they different then the English version? Or how did the passages from the Greek text make more sense?

Congratulations on your studies!

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

What NT passages did you translate and how were they different then the English version? Or how did the passages from the Greek text make more sense?

My translation differed from the NIV. What I generally found was that the NIV did not actually translate the text, but rather paraphrased it, and took a lot of liberty with that paraphrasing. This made my translation diverge considerably in some places, and it seemed that the NIV's paraphrasing efforts ended up confusing the text, so that my more literal translation made far more sense.

Congratulations on your studies!

Thanks!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, NIV is a very poor translation. It tends towards Dynamic Equivalence rather than Formal Equivalence, which essentially means that the translators did not try to translate the words and phrases accurately but just tried to convey the sense of what they felt it should mean. There are several places where in a decent translation I can think of 5 or 6 possible interpretations to choose among, but the NIV reading only allows for what seems like the worst of these choices. This version seems awfully dumbed down, as if it were meant to make the readers feel confident in their understanding of a single plain meaning of a naturally ambiguous text rather than actually trying to help them understand it better.


I'm no KJV-only type, but KJV is far more literal and so generally more accurate than and vastly superior to NIV. That does not mean it is the best choice though, or even was the best when first written. The pastor at my church strongly recommends the English Standard Version. The wording of ESV is just as simple and modern as NIV, while being more Formal Equivalence than KJV or even some scholarly translations. There are still a few places where I consider it to be unfortunately Dynamic in its equivalence, mostly those dealing with Hell. Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaroo are proper names and really should not be translated, or at least should not all be group under one such loaded term. Doing so seems to introduce a bias towards the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation in places that could otherwise fit at least as well with the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality.



Personally I tend to read my Vulgate and only glance at an English translation if I find a word I don't know. I don't think it is possible for any English translation to adhere as strongly to Formal Equivalence in translating the New testament as the Vulgate does, as the grammar of Latin is much more similar to that of Greek.

 

[Squonk]

oh, btw, would somebody be willing to translate a couple of pages from greek to english for me

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Yeah, NIV is a very poor translation. ... This version seems awfully dumbed down, as if it were meant to make the readers feel confident in their understanding of a single plain meaning of a naturally ambiguous text rather than actually trying to help them understand it better.

I don't know how much knowledge of Classical Greek you have, but it is remarkably unambiguous. It is inordinately obsessed with the speaker's opinion on a matter, and standing relative to the actions described. I refer you to things like the middle voice, the use of ἁτε vs. ὡς (which will determine whether the speaker believes in an opinion or not), and the highly qualified aspects of verbs.

oh, btw, would somebody be willing to translate a couple of pages from greek to english for me

Sure!

 

[Methos]

The NT stuff makes me want to learn Greek, though I've heard its a very difficult language.

 

[Squonk]

Sure!

thank you!
I will provide it soon.
I'm not entirely sure if it's in classical greek. It's byzantine stuff (X century), so it's probably something between classical and modern one. It's a speech, so it should be more or less in classical, though.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

So since then, I have perused various works of Ancient Greek. They are all interesting in their own ways, offering insight into the world in which the authors lived and also of their own personalities. Some of my observations are below.

It's not surprising that the authors that are most easily read by me come from the Classical Period, since Classical Attic is the dialect I studied. Authors like Aristotle, Plato, Xenophon, and others use vocabulary and style most familiar to me. Aristotle's style particularly appeals to me because he uses a didactic way of speaking that is not convoluted and does not result in confusing the reader. Xenophon is very matter-of-fact, in keeping with his Spartanophilia. Plato was variable to me. His Socratic dialogues are ok, but Republic seemed too stream-of-consciousness to keep up with.

Earlier literature, like the Iliad, is next to impossible to decipher. I just gave up early. In fact, poetry of any kind is too difficult. Words seem to be just made up as they go along. Tragedy and comedy are only a bit easier, as they also seem to be at least geared towards a poetic flavor.

The works of the Hellenistic Age and later, written in Koine, are ok. For amusement I translated some Biblical passages as well, and found the language so simple that it wasn't even interesting. There is also plenty of evidence to me that the authors of the NT were not even native Greek.

Those are some of my impressions.

That, and for amusement, translating song lyrics into Ancient Greek.

 

[classical_hero]

Did you look at the Gospel of Luke and how it works in comparison to other Greek works and then to other parts of the Bible?

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Did you look at the Gospel of Luke and how it works in comparison to other Greek works and then to other parts of the Bible?

No, I just read it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Luke is said to have been a physician and the only writer in the new testament with a formal education in Greek. His works (The Gospel of Luke plus Acts of the Apostles) is said to be of higher quality Greek than the rest, but he was still addressing them to those who were barely literate so the difference may not be huge. I've noticed in the Vulgate that those books seem more awkwardly worded than the rest of scripture, but that could have at least as much to do with those who translated it into Latin as with the original author.

 

[Elrohir]

Nano: As a (relative) new comer to the language as a native English speaker, how difficult was it to learn? Can you compare it to any other languages? (Spanish, German, Mandarin Chinese, etc?) How much time, on a daily/weekly basis, did you put into learning it?

 

[Gogf]

Nano: As a (relative) new comer to the language as a native English speaker, how difficult was it to learn? Can you compare it to any other languages? (Spanish, German, Mandarin Chinese, etc?) How much time, on a daily/weekly basis, did you put into learning it?

Have you previously studied a highly-inflected language?

 

[Elrohir]

Have you previously studied a highly-inflected language?

I took a couple years of Latin. (Spaced apart and not terribly serious, though.)

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Luke is said to have been a physician and the only writer in the new testament with a formal education in Greek. His works (The Gospel of Luke plus Acts of the Apostles) is said to be of higher quality Greek than the rest, but he was still addressing them to those who were barely literate so the difference may not be huge.

I heard the same but didn't notice any significant difference.

There can be significant translation problems from Greek to Latin. Greek has more grammatical elements than Latin and some phrases cannot be translated directly, and have to be reworded. It may actually be easier to translate from Ancient Greek to English.

Nano: As a (relative) new comer to the language as a native English speaker, how difficult was it to learn? Can you compare it to any other languages? (Spanish, German, Mandarin Chinese, etc?) How much time, on a daily/weekly basis, did you put into learning it?

I spent several months reading from the standard textbook and doing exercises. It took about 4-6 months studying several days a week. Even after I finished the textbook, I had to go back several times to sort out some confusion I had, so that took even longer.

Ancient Greek is a highly inflected language, like Latin, Russian, or German. Those would be the closest approximations. It also has a complex verbal system, with lots of tenses, voices, and participles.