Ancient Mediterenean Civilizations

[Olleus]

Lets say I wanted to make a mod for Civ based around the ancient Mediterranean. The techs/buildings/units/etc... would roughly cover the period from 500 BC to 0AD. What civs do you think are the most important to include, I'm looking for around ~10. As with Civ, historical accuracy doesn't need to be followed too closely, so I'd consider an ancient Egyptian civilization a must even if their period of glory predates this. By most important the same criteria as in a normal Civ game apply so: geographical spread, reasonably well known to the audience, and historically well known and distinct enough to be able to design UUs, UBs and UIs.

Personally I would go for something like:
Rome, Greece, Carthage, Persia, Egypt, Phoenicia, Celt, Minoan/Mycenaean, Hebrew, Assyrian, Hittite, Babylonian.

Thoughts ideas very welcome. My history before the Persian wars is pretty lacking.

 

[Kyriakos]

Minoan/Mycenean don't exist in that timeline; iirc they stop existing near 1000 BC (Mycenae; Minoa ends before that).

For 500 BC-0 AD you do need more than one greek state. It starts ten years before the first greek-persian war, and iirc a few years after the failed revolt in Ionia (with athenian and chalkedan help, and the sacking of Sardeis).

I doubt that Phoenicia has a reason to exist in the timeline either; they were subjugated by Persia, same with Babylon and Egypt. Hittites don't exist either. So either start your timeline earlier, or use civs like Athens/Sparta(or pelop league)/Thebes/Macedonia/Persia/Rome/Carthage/Celts/Ind western greeks(Marseille etc)/others (eg Etruscans, and depending on your map, and you can always have even more greek states, eg in Cyrene in Africa).

Re Egypt, if mechanics allow for it to be a vassal (of Persia), it is still a good choice.

 

[Flying Pig]

You've picked a particularly difficult time-period to model, because the political map from (say) 200 to 1 BC (there is no year 0, incidentally) was shaped by actors that didn't exist in 500 BC. You can get away with including Rome, who didn't do anything particularly interesting until long after 500, but there's no way to get the Successor Kingdoms, and the fact that there was division and warfare between the once-united Macedonian empire is absolutely crucial to making a game that has any chance of making anything post-146 BC in the Eastern Mediterranean playable. So by starting the game in 500 BC, you remove any chance that it will resemble history after about 300 BC, and you've still got two-thirds of the game on the clock.

One option would be to have emerging civilisations as in Rhye's and Fall, which would be complicated but would give you a much better shot at things.

 

[Olleus]

True, picking a different time period is an option. But I'm really not too worried about realism here. Nobody complains when they encounter the American empire in 300BC in Civ after all. This mod would be on a random map as well as a 'true' mediterranean map so following history is pretty much out of the window.

I guess I'm more asking for culturally distinct, historically important, interesting and reasonably well known ancient mediterranean civilizations. Are there any I've missed. Should the Numidians be included for example?

 

[Lexicus]

You should check out Europa Barbarorum, a mod for Rome: Total War, for civ ideas. I would also change the time period to begin just as Alexander's empire falls apart.

 

[W|M]

There's also Europa Barbarorum II, which is a mod for Medieval 2: Total War. EB and EB II start in 272 BC, 51 years after Alexander's death

 

[Arakhor]

There's also Anno Domini, which is a popular and well-supported Ancient World mod for Civ V.

 

[Kyriakos]

There's also Anno Domini, which is a popular and well-supported Ancient World mod for Civ V.

500BC-1AD. "Anno Domini" And i am pretty sure the Anno Domini mod has Boudicca, so even not dwelling on its title one can tell it isn't focused on the same period.

 

[Arakhor]

It also includes the Hyksos, the Ptolemids, the Byzantines, the Carthaginians, various Dark Age powers, Greek city states and Imperial Rome, so there's something for everyone there.

 

[Olleus]

Thanks for the suggestions! All those mods seem to place a higher emphasis on historical accuracy than I would and include some civilisations that are distinctly obscure. Writing them out in greek seems popular... but is definitely not the kind of thing I'm going for. A lot of them are civs/empires per dynasty, I definitely want more of a big picture approach, something resembling a normal civ game, just more restricted in time. That said, I'm pretty convinced that having Greece (representing Athens, Sparta, Corinth and the like before Philip II) and Macedonia (also representing the client states) as separate civs is worth it. Rather than moving the starting date forward, I was thinking of moving it back to 600BC and finishing around 100 BC, at which point Rome had virtually undisputed hegemony over the Mediterranean.

My definite inclusion list would be:
Egypt, Persia, Rome, Celt, Carthage, Greece, Macedonia

As for the additional ones I'm considering to bring it up to 10-12 as that would give me two civs specialised for each of food, production, war, religion and science, plus Greece whose speciality would be flexibility.
Phoenicia: Do we know enough for them to be themed and play differently to Carthage?
Hittite/Assyria/Babylonia: Having one ancient Mesopotamian civ in the mix would be good, even if this was past their peak. Which one is most worthy of inclusion in the late iron age?
Hebrew: The most obvious pick for a religion focused civ. Apart from the culture being involved in later historical event, they were hardly noteworthy in this period. Would there be a better religious choice?
Numidia: Having a nomadic civilization (and representing africa a little more) would be nice. Out of the sources listed above this is the name that I recognised first, but their history in this period is pretty nominal. Is there a better choice?

 

[schlaufuchs]

Giving My Standard Responses to Questions of this sort:

Which Egypt?
Which Persia?
Which Celt(s)?
Are Macedon and Greece really deserving of separate slots?
How are we defining Rome? Are the Etruscans Roman? Are the Samnites?

How are we defining "civilization" in this thought experiment?

And are we choosing civs teleologically? (i.e. based on who is important to us as Modern westerners, in which case "Hebrews" might make some sense) or are we choosing groups that were prominent and important then (in which case Hebrews weren't really that important in the grand scheme of things).

 

[Flying Pig]

You don't necessarily have to choose with the 'which X?' questions. Certainly in Civ IV, it's possible to have the leaders change over time, so by using custom leader traits and era-specific unique units/buildings, you can easily have (say) New Kingdom and Ptolemaic Egypt represented by the same civilisation without any conflicts or loss of difference.

 

[Olleus]

The point is more that I want these to be abstract representation of civs rather than a definite sovereign state.

Egypt would be something pre Persia and pre Greek. Don't know much about Egyptian history, but around Ramses II? Or whenever their empire was at its largest.
Persia could also be flexible, but centered around the Achaemenid
Celts have even more wiggle room, but if I had to pick one particular period (to fix art style say) then 1stC BC Gaul would be my first thought.
Rome would be Republican Rome. In the Punic war period if you want even more precision.

I would split Macedonia and Greece so that the latter can represent the City State period (Persian wars, peninsular wars, etc...) while the latter would focus on Alexander and the successor states. As for whether the Hebrews are worthy of inclusion, I have exactly the same dilemma.

 

[Arakhor]

The New Kingdom under Ramses II and the Hittite Empire were contemporaries (the world's oldest peace treaty is between the two powers). The Hittites disappeared during the Bronze Age collapse, along with the New Kingdom, and the Third Intermediate Period went on for 300-400 years before the Persians and then the Ptolemids took control.