Ancient Regime and Cultural VC

[Mesix]

I recently played a Cultural VC game as France. As I pondered the loss of the Ancient Regime UA at the advent of Steam Power (this thread is not intended to be another referendum on the merits of that game design choice), I wondered if it was possible to achieve a Cultural VC before Steam Power.

Has anyone done it?

This would prevent the use of Industrial Era buildings and wonders such as the Broadcast Tower, the Eiffel Tower, the Cristo Redentor, the Statue of Liberty (okay, not so culturally important, but +1 for specialists is always nice), the Sydney Opera House, etc.

Please share your tips and strategies for achieving a Renaissance (or early Industrial) Era Cultural VC.

 

[vexing]

Has anyone done it?

i would never do this, though it is of course possible - just stop signing RAs after you've gotten archaelogy and hard tech through the rest of renaissance.
you are missing out on factory and broadcast towers which will speed up your game a lot more than the raw +2.

 

[Mesix]

The question wasn't so much how to slow down tech as it was how to speed up culture.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Having no idea how you have executed the game to this point, we can't really tell you what you might have done faster.

Look at it this way... you've just lost 12 culture/turn (assuming 6 cities). That's one city state or a few culture buildings in total. It's been a while since I played a game, but 12 culture around that point in the game is what.. 5% or so of what your getting?

It's hard to a see a strategy for completing the VC before steam power because you've denied yourself access to the big culture guns that ramp up those the count to finish those last 5 policies or so.

 

[NotSure]

The question wasn't so much how to slow down tech as it was how to speed up culture.

Well, the best way to speed up culture is to advance through tech (to mass media) as fast as possible. I don't have the tech tree available to ref right now, but I think you can tech that far without ever researching steam. I know you can do it without researching rifling & artillery, but that's a bit risky at immortal or deity.

After reading the op again I see what you're asking. I don't know of any way to play optimally & get enough culture to win in the renaissance. I suspect if this were possible (maybe some kind of Songhai mass-puppet strategy) then the cultural VC wouldn't be balanced very well.

 

[Mesix]

Having no idea how you have executed the game to this point, we can't really tell you what you might have done faster.

Look at it this way... you've just lost 12 culture/turn (assuming 6 cities). That's one city state or a few culture buildings in total. It's been a while since I played a game, but 12 culture around that point in the game is what.. 5% or so of what your getting?

It's hard to a see a strategy for completing the VC before steam power because you've denied yourself access to the big culture guns that ramp up those the count to finish those last 5 policies or so.

I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I do not have a problem in a current game. I was able to easily win my recent French game by teching to the early Modern Era and building the Eiffel Tower, Broadcast Towers, Cristo Redentor, etc.

The reason I started this discussion is to figure out optimal strategies to improve the Cultural VC when playing as the Franch so that the game can be finished before the advent of Steam Power. Perhaps it isn't possible. If it is, I am curious what strategies people have used to speed up the acquisition of policies (not slowing down technology).

Some questions might include:

Is it best to REX out four core cities early or stay as one or two cities to keep early policy cost low?
Do people prefer to open up Tradition to get bonus +20% for building early wonders and +3 in the capital city, or is it more optimal to go straight for Liberty and get the free Settler, Worker, and GE?
When is the optimal time to take Legalism (e.g. free Monuments, Temples, Opera Houses, or Museums)?
What wonders are essential? Which are nice to have (but not priority)? Which wonders do people skip?
Is it faster to play a peaceful game, or to go for world conquest and puppet all captured cities?
Are there any optional game settings (i.e. adjusting # players, CS, or barbarian activity, etc.) which could change the outcome?

I'm sure there are a host of other strategies which could be discussed in this context as well.

 

[CYZ]

It is possible to win via culture before steampower. But only if you go outof your way to do so.

So trying to win before steampower is mostly just avoiding steampower. So you're only handicapping yourself. Why'd you want to do this?

 

[CYZ]

ome questions might include:

Is it best to REX out four core cities early or stay as one or two cities to keep early policy cost low?

Two is better for culture, 100% sure. However you might need more cities for other purposes, even when playing cultural.

Do people prefer to open up Tradition to get bonus +20% for building early wonders and +3 in the capital city, or is it more optimal to go straight for Liberty and get the free Settler, Worker, and GE?

Culture games means tall growth and wonder whoring, so tradition is certainly a very good idea. Still, early city (with france especially) and free worker are good in any situation, you can still go tradition afterwards.

When is the optimal time to take Legalism (e.g. free Monuments, Temples, Opera Houses, or Museums)?

Most people say opera houses. However, this means delaying the other tradition policies which is not always best. So very situational this one.

What wonders are essential? Which are nice to have (but not priority)? Which wonders do people skip?

Obviously oracle and stonehenge are almost essential. Same for sistine chappel or sydney opera house, if you get that far. But many wonders will help you in other areas which is certainly not a bad thing.

Is it faster to play a peaceful game, or to go for world conquest and puppet all captured cities?

Peacefull imo.

Are there any optional game settings (i.e. adjusting # players, CS, or barbarian activity, etc.) which could change the outcome?

Obviously. You'll want to avoid war so pangea might be bad. if you're playing aztecs you want extra barbarians. More CS is good since you might want to ally all the cultural ones. The most important one, allowing policy saving, this is extremely usefull (but I consider it cheating).

I'm sure there are a host of other strategies which could be discussed in this context as well.

 

[NotSure]

Some questions might include:

Is it best to REX out four core cities early or stay as one or two cities to keep early policy cost low?
Do people prefer to open up Tradition to get bonus +20% for building early wonders and +3 in the capital city, or is it more optimal to go straight for Liberty and get the free Settler, Worker, and GE?
When is the optimal time to take Legalism (e.g. free Monuments, Temples, Opera Houses, or Museums)?
What wonders are essential? Which are nice to have (but not priority)? Which wonders do people skip?
Is it faster to play a peaceful game, or to go for world conquest and puppet all captured cities?
Are there any optional game settings (i.e. adjusting # players, CS, or barbarian activity, etc.) which could change the outcome?

All good questions. I don't play for culture wins often, so I had pretty much these same questions when I last tried a culture win.
I believe this is the optimum policy path:

generally an optimal path is tradition -> liberty -> settler -> worker -> representation -> all of piety -> all of freedom -> finish liberty -> finish tradition -> all of whatever (last branch hardly matters).

I believe, based on the success of others, that the best plan for settling is 4 quick cities with a small (6 or so) compliment of puppets. I think the combination of Representation & Legalism makes 4 settled cities best.
My opinion on Legalism is that it's best for museums because the production cost is so high & the return is so good.
Wonders: again, opinion only, most to least important are Oracle, SC, Hermitage, Louvre, SOH, SH. I found CR & broadcast towers had surprisingly low impact by the time they were available.
I would be pleasantly surprised to hear of a strategy/civ that could reach CV at around 200 turns at Prince or above. I've seen around 230-250 from Tabernak, tommynt, & others, but I'm assuming they RAed their way to mass media.

 

[RancidTwinkie]

For France on a Cultural Victory, I would open Open Tradition or Honor (depending on early scouting), then the other. Get the Wonder bonus when it will time with beginning a Wonder. Otherwise focus on Liberty and then finishing that tree for the free GP.

Push through Piety to completion.
Work the specialist tree (finishing to double all of those GAs you planted).
Take the free cultural buildings from Tradition for Museums.
Once you have begun gathering puppets, push up Honor to grab happiness and culture.

As for the map - take the prime two or three additional city sites early. Leave less optimal one for your neighbours to fill in. Once you are ready (Iron/Mathematics or Gunpowder) take a few puppets to boost Culture.

 

[Tabarnak]

Trying to win culturally before Steam Power means that you can take your usually spent for RAs into cultural buildings and cs instead. For sure it's always better to rush indu techs for a faster finish, but it's still a good compromise.

Best bet is to rush Hermitage with the legalism trick, get Archeology then stop teching by RAs and producing GS. A 4 cities set-up is the best thing you can do.(Edit : take representation as your 3rd policy before settling 2 other cities) Since you are playing France, just spam these cities before any workers(excepted stolen ones) and get all of them before turn 40. That way, you gain more of his UA sooner.

edit : Puppet a lot. The advantage of getting 4 cities that fast is you can raise an army in no time and slug neighbors sooner.

With 4 cities and 7-8 puppets, you can probably finish under 290(280?) turns without getting Steam Power.

 

[vexing]

Is it best to REX out four core cities early or stay as one or two cities to keep early policy cost low?
Do people prefer to open up Tradition to get bonus +20% for building early wonders and +3 in the capital city, or is it more optimal to go straight for Liberty and get the free Settler, Worker, and GE?
When is the optimal time to take Legalism (e.g. free Monuments, Temples, Opera Houses, or Museums)?
What wonders are essential? Which are nice to have (but not priority)? Which wonders do people skip?
Is it faster to play a peaceful game, or to go for world conquest and puppet all captured cities?
Are there any optional game settings (i.e. adjusting # players, CS, or barbarian activity, etc.) which could change the outcome?

I'm sure there are a host of other strategies which could be discussed in this context as well.

you should absolutely rex with france. early game, with tradition and liberty and a monument built your capital is still less than 10 culture, each city is +3 (30% or over), and each city increases costs by 15% (on standard or smaller size). as france you're speeding up policy acquisition by rexing. as you get more and more culture in the capital this is obviously less, but even up to 20 cpt base each additional city is breaking even upon founding, and an extra city with monument speeds up policies even if your capital is producing 33 cpt.

in a culture game i generally always go tradition -> liberty -> settler -> worker -> representation. you just open up tradition for border expansion, the 3cpt adds up a little bit, and it makes legalism available for opera houses to help get the hermitage up quicker when you have acoustics. representation with 4 cities is slightly more cost reduction than finishing piety, so getting it early is useful.

after those 5 policies there are a lot of choices;
you can get utility policies like aristocracy or finishing liberty,
or you can start heading directly through piety.
the 33% for wonders in piety in addition to the cost reduction of the finisher are pretty key policies, and it's pretty hard to determine if the utility policies speed up culture acquisition enough to make up for the delay. additionally after you're done with piety, freedom will generally be open and finishing freedom is another key point for a cultural victory that getting the utility policies slows down. generally for these reasons i try to go straight through piety and freedom and finish liberty after that.

as for peaceful vs conquering, you're pretty much guaranteed to be declared upon by a neighbor, so i will generally take advantage of their declaration to puppet a few of their cities and capital without wiping them out. this provides a significant income boost without increasing social policy costs, which allows you to ally more city states and sign full waves of RAs with other people.