Ancient Techs Rebalanced modmod available for VP

Arkatakor

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I have had for quite a while a mod that modifies the ancient era by adding hunting, fishing, mysticism, stone tools and wood working. Monument and shrine buildings require these new techs and scouts / pathfinders require hunting. New buildings include furrier, carpenter, fish traps, apiary and the Lascaux Caves and Knossos wonders.

I have now adapted that mod for usage for VP for those who are interested in trying it out. The VP version can be found here. The main differences between VP and this modmod (other than what is described above) are:
  • All food resources are visible from the start and some of them can be improved with the new tier 1 techs (fishing, hunting)
  • Chopping forests is shifted to mining
  • Chopping jungles is shifted to bronze working
  • Trading post and lumbermill improvements become available with pottery and woodworking respectively (trading post starts at +1 gold then goes back to VP's +3 gold + 1 culture with currency)
Current Issues / future fixes
  • The Labyrinth of Knossos (wonder) damages units all around city regardless of if they are on land or on sea. I will update this in the future to only affect land units.
  • In my original mod, I had the elder council building which somewhat conflicts with VP's council building. I intend to replace the elder council building with VP's council building (putting the latter in Mysticism) but need to find another building to put inside the wheel tech first as it will be rather empty without a building. Until then both elder council and council buildings are in this modmod.
  • I am using a borrowed lua algorithm that checks for unimproved resources for building requirements (fish traps and lascaux caves depend on it). There is an issue this algorithm not always working - something that I will look into after Christmas.
  • Will eventually modify throwing axeman to upgrade to archer
If some people decide to try it out it would be interesting to have some feedback on if they think this modmod compromises VP balance too much. I have done a few runs and sofar feel that it the first tier techs could use some more buildings. I'll be abroad pretty much from tomorrow so won't really be doing any updates until after the new year (nor reading any forum comments). Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and a happy new year until then!
 
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Blue Ghost

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Two things I've noticed here:
The Scout is unlocked at Hunting. In VP, the Scout is now a classical era unit, so this should not be the case.
Cities start with bombard range 2, which goes back down to 1 after Agriculture is researched.

Overall, this mod is pretty fun and well designed! I wouldn't say it's necessary for Vox Populi, since ancient era gameplay is already quite balanced and diverse, but for a bit of a shakeup of gameplay experience, this is good. Adding it to my rotating list of optional mods to use.
 

Arkatakor

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Two things I've noticed here:
The Scout is unlocked at Hunting. In VP, the Scout is now a classical era unit, so this should not be the case.
Cities start with bombard range 2, which goes back down to 1 after Agriculture is researched.

Overall, this mod is pretty fun and well designed! I wouldn't say it's necessary for Vox Populi, since ancient era gameplay is already quite balanced and diverse, but for a bit of a shakeup of gameplay experience, this is good. Adding it to my rotating list of optional mods to use.
Thanks for the feedback. I am happy to relocate the scout to whatever tech it was being associated with in the classical era. As for the cities starting with bombard range of 2, I was not aware of that, and am not sure where to being fixing it (somehow its associated with agriculture). I will look into it though.

In the next few weeks I will be adding a few more buildings (1 wonder for pottery and 2 or 3 other faith boosting buildings).
 

climat

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Maybe Optics (VP Sailing)? IIRC scout is enabled with the tech in VP.
 

climat

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Ok, and what about the pathfinder?

I thought that Archery was chosen for it because of your update. To me, it feels somewhat late (since I usually play marathon) but that's just my opinion. (Could you make it available with Hunting? :mischief:)
 

Blue Ghost

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Pathfinder at Hunting sounds good.

From the Vox Populi TechChanges.sql file:
Code:
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=1 WHERE Type='TECH_AGRICULTURE';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=2 WHERE Type='TECH_MATHEMATICS';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=2, BombardIndirect=1 WHERE Type='TECH_GUNPOWDER';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=3, BombardIndirect=1 WHERE Type='TECH_DYNAMITE';
The intention is that cities start at 1 range and increase over time. I don't know if it's possible to set the bombard range with no techs. Maybe you'd need to add a new tech that all civs start with.

There are a few buildings that are a bit out of place compared to other VP buildings. The carpenter's % bonus to production isn't a thing that's done in VP. And there aren't any regular buildings that give happiness like the furrier does. These aren't necessarily imbalanced, just somewhat odd. Up to you if you want to change them.

May I suggest that you add a building without any tech prerequisites? Right now you're practically forced to start by building a second warrior, since the worker takes too long to get online and isn't that useful at the start. Adding something else as a first build option can help diversify the beginning a bit.
 

Arkatakor

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Pathfinder at Hunting sounds good.

From the Vox Populi TechChanges.sql file:
Code:
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=1 WHERE Type='TECH_AGRICULTURE';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=2 WHERE Type='TECH_MATHEMATICS';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=2, BombardIndirect=1 WHERE Type='TECH_GUNPOWDER';
UPDATE Technologies SET BombardRange=3, BombardIndirect=1 WHERE Type='TECH_DYNAMITE';
The intention is that cities start at 1 range and increase over time. I don't know if it's possible to set the bombard range with no techs. Maybe you'd need to add a new tech that all civs start with.

There are a few buildings that are a bit out of place compared to other VP buildings. The carpenter's % bonus to production isn't a thing that's done in VP. And there aren't any regular buildings that give happiness like the furrier does. These aren't necessarily imbalanced, just somewhat odd. Up to you if you want to change them.

May I suggest that you add a building without any tech prerequisites? Right now you're practically forced to start by building a second warrior, since the worker takes too long to get online and isn't that useful at the start. Adding something else as a first build option can help diversify the beginning a bit.
Thanks for pointing out the code that causes the bombard issue. Fixing this will prove tricky as due to the poor design, bombard range assumes that you have at least 1 tech from the game start. I will look into inserting a dummy (already researched) and invisible tech and associate bombard range with that. Won't have much time for that in the next few days though.

As for the carpenter and happiness building, thats just part of the mod. As I add buildings I might boost the carpenter even further to reduce building backlog.

RE: May I suggest that you add a building without any tech prerequisites? Right now you're practically forced to start by building a second warrior, since the worker takes too long to get online and isn't that useful at the start. Adding something else as a first build option can help diversify the beginning a bit.

Will do. I am working on some exclusive buildings (that cannot be built in same city) that I was gonna associate with hunting, fishing and stoneworking, however considering your input I will remove their tech requirements. Good suggestion. Should hopefully have an update in the next few days.

I thought that Archery was chosen for it because of your update. To me, it feels somewhat late (since I usually play marathon) but that's just my opinion. (Could you make it available with Hunting? :mischief:)
Done. I also put scout in optics. Update is live.
 

Arkatakor

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The intention is that cities start at 1 range and increase over time. I don't know if it's possible to set the bombard range with no techs. Maybe you'd need to add a new tech that all civs start with.
Had a bit of time to look into this today; I fixed it by creating a free dummy free tech and associating bombardment range with that. Just uploaded the fix on steam. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction :)
 

Blue Ghost

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Not sure if this mod qualifies as a "best mod" yet, nor how to host the download. If i'm not mistaken I would need to request a forum where I should host it.
Can you upload to Resource Manager?
 

Ziad

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Hey! I just played a game with the VP version of this mod and I have to say that I really like it. I almost wish it were baseline.

A few notes:

1) Furrier: +1 happiness is inconsistent with how buildings in VP deal with happiness. The building is strong enough without the happiness.

2) Carpenter: This building scales heavily throughout the game, as the 10% production and the Engineer slot only get stronger as you advance. This makes it a disproportionately strong building for when it can be built. I would suggest either removing the +10% modifier or changing the engineer slot to a static +2 production.

3) Lascaux Caves: This wonder makes Stonehenge look bad. I know it's thematic for there to be an artist there since it's all about cave paintings, but you can make that argument for any wonder (Pyramids giving Engineer slot). How about you just let it produce +1 Great Artist points a turn? In return it can provide +1 culture.

4) Temple of Artemis can be built with Archery (like vanilla). It ends up being prematurely available (a tech ahead). You should move it back to Military Theory where it belongs.
 

Arkatakor

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Hey! I just played a game with the VP version of this mod and I have to say that I really like it. I almost wish it were baseline.

A few notes:

1) Furrier: +1 happiness is inconsistent with how buildings in VP deal with happiness. The building is strong enough without the happiness.

2) Carpenter: This building scales heavily throughout the game, as the 10% production and the Engineer slot only get stronger as you advance. This makes it a disproportionately strong building for when it can be built. I would suggest either removing the +10% modifier or changing the engineer slot to a static +2 production.

3) Lascaux Caves: This wonder makes Stonehenge look bad. I know it's thematic for there to be an artist there since it's all about cave paintings, but you can make that argument for any wonder (Pyramids giving Engineer slot). How about you just let it produce +1 Great Artist points a turn? In return it can provide +1 culture.

4) Temple of Artemis can be built with Archery (like vanilla). It ends up being prematurely available (a tech ahead). You should move it back to Military Theory where it belongs.
Thanks for the detailed feedback.

As mentioned in the OP this mod is an extension of an existing mod that works on BNW vanilla, hence the buildings are more balanced there. I can understand why Lascaux Caves makes stone henge look bad in VP (its not the case or at least less so in vanilla BNW). With that said, I will certainly make adjustments for VP as per your feedback over the next few days.

In the meanwhile I have released an update which has a new building (Fire Pit) with no tech requirements since someone requested a no tech building. I am working on 3 other no tech buildings atm (in which only one of these 3 can be built in a city).
 
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Arkatakor

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ok, published an update with the following changes:

Spoiler New Version Notes :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buildings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Furrier: removed happiness (building was already strong without it)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Text Updates
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fixed misleading / incomplete texts with knossos / apiary as per below:

- Knossos requres stone (not improved) though that was not properly specified
- Apiary gives science and gold, not food and gold



Will get back to the other points of peoples feedback soon. A nerf for Lascaux Caves is definitely in the works.
 

Arkatakor

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Uploaded small update for Lascaux Caves:

Spoiler New Version Notes :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lascaux Caves:

- Removed great work of art slot
- Removed artist specialist slot
- Base culture set to 3 (from 1)
 

Ziad

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Have you considered a nerf to Carpenter, as well as the removal of Elder Council in the VP version?
 

Arkatakor

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Have you considered a nerf to Carpenter, as well as the removal of Elder Council in the VP version?
The problem with an elder council removal is that I have nothing to replace it with. Mysticism will look empty without it. Once I introduce a new building, I will remove it.

As for carpenter, VP introduces new paper buildings with the city state mod. Further to this existing buildings (like the stable) have had their production cost greatly increased so I feel its only right to have a building that helps reduce building backlog. This is how I feel playing on epic, with tech costs increased about 25%. Do you all play on marathon? Maybe carpenter is OP at that speed.
 
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