Ancient temples

[Kael]

Im not real happy with the current implementation of ancient temples. They seem to boring. To be honest i loved the look of them so I added them in without much thought as to what they would do (classic flavor leading design mistake).

In the mythology they are temples to Mulcarn (the god of winter) that were built during the age of ice and have been abandoned since he was killed. But we can change that if something else makes more sense.

Right now they need to be explored, once they are they provide all newly built arcane units Combat I if they are linked to the temple (less useful now since the only arcane units that are build are the adepts, and arcane units actually level).

Ive considered the following effects, none of which im particuarly happy with:

1. Random effect, teleporting the unit to another temple, popping a demon, granting a tech, becoming an already improved mana node, etc. I dont much care for this since it copies the goody hut mechanic.

2. Increases the rate arcane units gain xp. I dont much care for this since it copies the arcane trait mechanic.

3. Grant bonus xp to disciple units.

4. Pop monsters (lizardmen?) every so many turns until they are explored, at which point they become dormant.

What do you guys think they should do?

 

[Corlindale]

What do you guys think they should do?

Ideally, I think they should mostly give quests. But that's far into the future, so we'll still need a placeholder mechanic.

Perhaps they could give access to certain special units?(Lost disciples of Mulcarn? Tamed monsters lurking in the dungeons beneath the temples?) Or give a culture bonus to all linked cities?(might be too powerful in regards to new cities). Or have an effect somewhat similar to the Runestones I mentioned in the "Design: Resources"-thread a few days ago?

The random mana source might also make sense, though it is a bit boring.

 

[C.Roland]

Ideally, I think they should mostly give quests. But that's far into the future, so we'll still need a placeholder mechanic.

Perhaps they could give access to certain special units?(Lost disciples of Mulcarn? Tamed monsters lurking in the dungeons beneath the temples?) Or give a culture bonus to all linked cities?(might be too powerful in regards to new cities). Or have an effect somewhat similar to the Runestones I mentioned in the "Design: Resources"-thread a few days ago?

The random mana source might also make sense, though it is a bit boring.

I like the idea of the temple that give a special unit.

 

[loki1232]

What do you guys think they should do?

Well i have a few ideas.
I think that having a random effect might be really nice.
What if they were instead lost repositories of secret knowledge. They could give a lot of possible effects based on this idea.

Or, they could be centers of worship of barbarians. Lizardmen?

More later right now there's party at my house. (and do you think we've done enough on the Luchurip yet so i can work on ancient temples?)

 

[Kael]

Well i have a few ideas.
I think that having a random effect might be really nice.
What if they were instead lost repositories of secret knowledge. They could give a lot of possible effects based on this idea.

Or, they could be centers of worship of barbarians. Lizardmen?

More later right now there's party at my house. (and do you think we've done enough on the Luchurip yet so i can work on ancient temples?)

I know we have traded a lot of pm's about the Luchuirp. Could you start a thread here with your latest ideas so the group can check them out?

 

[wilboman]

Actually, technologies that are only available through posession of an Ancient Temple could be really, really cool.

 

[woodelf]

Anything would make them better than they are now. They're always in jungles which makes putting a city there early in the game simply not worth it.

I like the lizardman popping idea, but see a problem since exploring the temples is quite a ways down the road in the tech tree.

Happiness generating artifacts?

The special techs mentioned above?

 

[wilboman]

I suppose when equipment becomes a going concern, Ancient Temple could give special stuff of the equipment variety.

 

[seZereth]

I suppose when equipment becomes a going concern, Ancient Temple could give special stuff of the equipment variety.

Thats a good point

Furthermore i like the Lizzardman attraction

 

[Kael]

How about we merge all of these ideas and have them be midgame goodie huts (midgame because you will need to clear the jungles before you can explore them).

1. In the begining they will be lizardman spawning points, starting at about turn 100 with a chance to spawn a lizardman every few turns if they arent inside cultural borders and there isn't a non-barbarian unit on the tile.

2. These chance of spawnign a lizardman will increase as the game goes on.

3. Exploring the temple will have a random chance to:

[tab]a. pop minor demons or a monster
[tab]b. unique gifted monster
[tab]c. bonus research
[tab]d. mana source
[tab]e. unit teleported to another temple.

As I look at this I cant help but think that are resally just another set of goody huts. The unique tech is a good idea, but what would it do?

Im thinking maybe the anicent temples will be improved enough if we just let multiple ones have an effect (right now there is no advantage to having more than 1). What if the casters got a combat promotion for each ancient temple they had access to, so if they had 3 they would start with combat I, combat II and combat III?

 

[woodelf]

What if the casters got a combat promotion for each ancient temple they had access to, so if they had 3 they would start with combat I, combat II and combat III?

Would this make casters more likely to get chosen as defenders in a stack? I hate it when that happens!

 

[Kael]

Would this make casters more likely to get chosen as defenders in a stack? I hate it when that happens!

I could just modify the get best defender function to only count casters as half as tough as they actually are. I already have a check in that makes those with the "Guardsman" promotion act as if they are 50% tougher than they are.

Or I could just give a minor negative per level of the defender, so all things being equal higher level units tend to be protected.

Chalid, what are your thoughts?

 

[Chalid]

Hmm im thinking about this for some time too. We would need to do several things.

I would try to simply make mage automatically the worst defender. The only thing that should be a more worse defender is a level 8+ Unit with below 50% LP. The problem is usually you do want your highest level unit to defend. Only not if the chances to survive are below 80% ...

But we have to do some things for high level units for sure. The AI should never suicide a Hero or Level 8+ unit but only attack with those if it has good chaces for success. I'd say 70%+2% per level above Level 5 should be the threshold for experienced units.
I have already some changes that work in that direction but did not submit them yet.

As we have now tons of stuff i would say we try to do packaged releases.

When we have Verified that 0.12 is free of major bugs we should releas a version that only contains changes in the SDK. The next version will only be phython changes and so forth. That will allow us to easier find bugs than when we add things on all edges.

 

[Kael]

Hmm im thinking about this for some time too. We would need to do several things.

I would try to simply make mage automatically the worst defender. The only thing that should be a more worse defender is a level 8+ Unit with below 50% LP. The problem is usually you do want your highest level unit to defend. Only not if the chances to survive are below 80% ...

But we have to do some things for high level units for sure. The AI should never suicide a Hero or Level 8+ unit but only attack with those if it has good chaces for success. I'd say 70%+2% per level above Level 5 should be the threshold for experienced units.
I have already some changes that work in that direction but did not submit them yet.

As we have now tons of stuff i would say we try to do packaged releases.

When we have Verified that 0.12 is free of major bugs we should releas a version that only contains changes in the SDK. The next version will only be phython changes and so forth. That will allow us to easier find bugs than when we add things on all edges.

Its easy enough to isolate out if issues are python or SDK problems, that doesn't worry me.

Im more worried about isolating it inside the SDK. When we have proven that it is a CvCoreGameDLL.dll issue and getting to the root of it. On that front I would like to make sure we more forward conservativly.

I don't like having the releases be as frequent as they have been, I have only been doing that to fix major issues, as you mentiond. Im hoping that .12 will be stable enough that we can let it sit and we can go to public updates every 3-4 weeks.

I really like your ideas to modify the best defender and attacking ai changes. Definitly something we want to get added.

 

[loki1232]

Hmm I have lots of ideas about this thing. Can we create a new thread about it? (by this is mean defender selection modifiers)

 

[Chalid]

Go on with it loki

 

[jimi12]

what are the effects of ancient temple currently?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Actually they were cut in Fire.

 

[jimi12]

why were they cut?

 

[Kael]

We ran out of bonus slots (you can only have 50 with the current gamefont file). I need to get a new gamefont file so we can grow outside of that limit.

That and Im just not exictied about what they used to do.