AND2.0 Civics

[gdambrauskas]

hope you feel better?

personally i do not like all these +10 percenters, what do they add? There's also a bazillion of them.

I also don't like building cost reduction: in my games i end up checking if a certain building is getting benefit and then (joy) going through 50 cities to make sure i am building such buildings. tedious micromanagement at best...

i'll pick thru fascism:

unlimited spy: good
10% great gen in cultural borders: why? 10 is tiny and since when fascists great generals care if they are defending or attacking?
+10% maintenance: why?
25% unit prod: possibly could be higher
+19 free mil units: could be higher
+10 exp in own borders: why?
-10 war weariness: i think it used to be 50 which i like much more. by the time you have fascism, there's non-stop war and i run fascism non-stop exactly for war weariness reduction. 50 was great.
unhappy for civs without fascism: why? were alies unhappy that they were not behaving like nazis?
+1 unhappy: drop, too small, too inconsequential
+10 hammers, -10 commerce: i'd make it 25 and 25
+1 spy point per specialist: ok
+1 unhappy in biggest cities: again, too small, drop
spies train 50% faster: good

so my simplified take would be:

unlimited spy
25% unit prod
+19 free mil units: could be higher
-50 war weariness
+25 hammers, -25 commerce
+1 spy point per specialist
spies train 50% faster: good
my own addition if this civic needs some downside would be to add inflation(real thing that happened "middle class is the class which is primarily susceptable to fascism because they value property highly, and fear of the loss of property and wealth, through unemployment and inflation, is a primary source of the insecurity which fascism feeds upon") ie you get all these military+production, but lose out on money/commerce.

 

[JosEPh_II]

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[gdambrauskas]

tested in mp games or single player? When you fight human, it's to the death (none of the, oh there's a lot of ww, lets make peace). Result is war going on for 100 turns and the unhappiness is, for example, in a 20 pop city, ~10-15 which can stomached with fascism, but -10% doesn't even put a dent in war weariness. There has to be ways to manage ww for wars that start at turn 50 and continue for 200-300 turns which is what happens in mp games (diety level adds its own handicaps on happiness and ww). As far as i know, 100 turn mp game without oos in c2c is a dream, so i would guess all the testing data is based on single player games? So how am I supposed to deal with 75% population being unhappy? My friend and i end up running intolerant+fascism, the only way to have permanent war state.

 

[JosEPh_II]

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[JosEPh_II]

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[JosEPh_II]

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[JosEPh_II]

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[Sgtslick]

Monarchy looks simply terrible (as a civic choice). Why on earth would anyone want to change out of chiefdom for monarchy.. The +1 per military unit was so integral to how it worked, sure it wasn't the best civic coz of the +1 gold per military unit etc.
Now what is the benefit of monarchy - some faster archers and unlimited noble specialist - and this costs higher upkeep & still gets the +1 gold cost per military unit. Sure it doesn't have as much WW or from tax compared to the old monarchy but the plus +1 per military unit was seriously its single defining feature making it something to strive for and a viable choice.
Now there is no way I would ever change from chiefdom which gives +25% Mil Unit Prod. +10% food hammer & commerce in Capital and +25% Faster Construction of barracks, Garrison - which are all quite nice.

 

[Randomness]

In my internal version, I have given Republic happiness with several buildings, allowing it to compete with Monarchy's military units for happiness while promoting a builder play style. I think this worked quite well.

P.S. I am very glad that you guys have been maintaining AND. I made the switch to C2C a while ago, but I find myself returning now. Your work is very appreciated.

 

[JosEPh_II]

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[Sgtslick]

Monarchy still needs something else though don't you think? You took out its best feature.

 

[Afforess]

Here are some of the Gov't Civic changes I'm trying to test and balance.

Chiefdom:
No Upkeep
+10% Commerce in Capital
(No other adjustments, just this, and yes it removes the 3 city limit)

Despotism: Prereq tech-Masonry
Upkeep low
+25% Maint. Cost from Distance to Palace
+25% Mil Unit Prod.
-10% WW
Cities require 10% more to grow
+1 per 10% Foreign Culture
+10% in Capital
+25% Faster Construction of barracks, Garrison
Allows Construct. of Monument to Dictator

Monarchy: Prereq tech-Monarchy
Upkeep Medium
Unlimited Noble Specialists
+15% M.C. from Dist. to Palace
+10% M.C. for All Cities on Home Continent
+10% War Weariness (WW) (additional )
Extra in All Cities per 50% Tax Rate (Max 2 from taxes)
5% Inflation
Spies (Esp units) trained 25% faster
25% Faster training of: Mohawk Archer, Knight, and Mailed Knight
50% Fast Train: Archer
50% Faster Construction of: Wall, High Walls, Castle (thinking about reducing this to 33%)
+1 Support cost per Mil. Unit
Allow Construct. Royal Monument

Republic: Prereq Democracy
Upkeep Medium
+10% GG inside Cult Borders
+15% M.C. from Dist. to Palace
+10% Mil Unit Prod.
+10% Experience gained from Combat in own Borders
+10% WW
Extra All Cities per 30% tax rate (Max of 3)
+10% , +10% , +5% in All Cities
+20% , in Capital
+25% in Capital
+1 per Specialist
+1 in 8 Largest Cities
Allows Agora

Will address Democracy, Federal, and Fascist in next segment.

Comments expected. Try to be specific please.

Thanks

JosEPh

Sorry, this seems horribly misbalanced. Despotism is fine, but Republic is extremely over powered, and Monarchy's suck. There is basically no reason to use Monarchy, the +1 gold per unit and extra maintenance and inflation makes it absurd. There are no real benefits, building units or buildings slightly faster is a very very weak bonus. Despotism is much cheaper, and gives a more broad 25% military prod boost, which is much better.

Republic is insanly overpowered. It is basically free gold, the +5% outweighs all the maintenance costs, and the extra hammers and food are just icing on the cake. You'd be insane NOT to use Republic.

You need to focus on balancing the civics for different playstyles. Republics are efficient for tiny/small countries. Monarchy's are efficient for keeping large countries happy. Right now, you don't reflect that at all.

PS - I thought the Gov't Civics from AND 1.76 were pretty good - why change them?

 

[mbrady10]

Just thought I would add, that aside from the changes being discussed, in my own game I made the addition of maxiumum cities (ala the first goverment civ) reflected in all of the government civs. So, from memory:

chief: 3

Dep: 6

Mon: 12

Rep: 28

fed: 30

Dem: 40

Facist: 45

Now, in most games, and world sizes these changes mean nothing, but, on Gigantic map size games, it

a) Allows civs to become huge, but not 120 cites huge (without conquest that is)

b) Seems to make it much more likely that you can actually finish games on these sizes.

c) Stops the ai from placing many of the 'poor producing, memory chewing, waste of time cities, that it loves so much'

So far, in my game (3800 turns-mid industrial-modified GEM map) its working a treat.

Somthing to consider perhaps?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Sorry, this seems horribly misbalanced. Despotism is fine, but Republic is extremely over powered, and Monarchy's suck. There is basically no reason to use Monarchy, the +1 gold per unit and extra maintenance and inflation makes it absurd. There are no real benefits, building units or buildings slightly faster is a very very weak bonus. Despotism is much cheaper, and gives a more broad 25% military prod boost, which is much better.

Republic is insanly overpowered. It is basically free gold, the +5% outweighs all the maintenance costs, and the extra hammers and food are just icing on the cake. You'd be insane NOT to use Republic.

You need to focus on balancing the civics for different playstyles. Republics are efficient for tiny/small countries. Monarchy's are efficient for keeping large countries happy. Right now, you don't reflect that at all.

PS - I thought the Gov't Civics from AND 1.76 were pretty good - why change them?

I haven't tried Joseph's civics yet, but they seem unbalanced to me too. But this is the reason why they were not included in SVN straight away, as they needed to be tested before. Or they could be used as a kind of modmod for those who wish so if they were causing problems to too many players. I had in mind a more radical rework of civics but on a more long term. I don't recall 1.76 Civics very well because it's a long time that I don't play with versions before AND2.0beta2 anymore. But I thought it was you who changed civics in AND2... The problem with the AND2 beta2 civics was that they were a bit unbalanced especially regarding corporations; in the current SVN version they work fine IMHO, but I'd like a new civic system which should be easier to understand (I don't like at all all those +X, -Y and so on: benefits and downsides should be kept simple and instantly understandable). It's not on top of the priority list as I said and will certainly need a long discussion.

 

[Arkatakor]

You need to focus on balancing the civics for different playstyles. Republics are efficient for tiny/small countries. Monarchy's are efficient for keeping large countries happy. Right now, you don't reflect that at all.

PS - I thought the Gov't Civics from AND 1.76 were pretty good - why change them?

I feel I concur with with regard to 1.76 civics. I have been playing AND 1.76 until very recently and it was still fresh in my head. However I did make a couple of minor changes to the and 1.76 civics back when I was playing it. For chiefdom I removed the bNoCapitalUnhappiness, and set iCivicHappiness to 0 (from -5). For despotism I set civic happiness to 0 from -3 and again removed the bNoCapitalUnhappiness.

However not all other civics from and 1.76 can be imported as is. There was one civic where you got unhappiness per military unit in city and other civics which had 100% war weariness. If you guys are leaning towards returning to the old style civics or at least using them as a baseline, my suggestion would be that we review the civics of the absolute final version of AND 1.76C and discuss them.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I feel I concur with with regard to 1.76 civics. I have been playing AND 1.76 until very recently and it was still fresh in my head. However I did make a couple of minor changes to the and 1.76 civics back when I was playing it. For chiefdom I removed the bNoCapitalUnhappiness, and set iCivicHappiness to 0 (from -5). For despotism I set civic happiness to 0 from -3 and again removed the bNoCapitalUnhappiness.

However not all other civics from and 1.76 can be imported as is. There was one civic where you got unhappiness per military unit in city and other civics which had 100% war weariness. If you guys are leaning towards returning to the old style civics or at least using them as a baseline, my suggestion would be that we review the civics of the absolute final version of AND 1.76C and discuss them.

Uh.. wait a moment, there's no 1.76C version. Do you mean 1.75C? Or do you mean 1.76? I don't remember the differences between those 2, so that's why I'm asking...

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, I've reinstalled 1.76 and I've seen civics are almost the same as in the current revision, with just minor tweaks. Mostly I've tuned them for what concerns corporations because there was something wrong in the code, something about how the maintenance of corporations was calculated.

 

[Arkatakor]

Uh.. wait a moment, there's no 1.76C version. Do you mean 1.75C? Or do you mean 1.76? I don't remember the differences between those 2, so that's why I'm asking...

Yes my bad, I was referring to 1.75C. Afforess was speaking about 1.76 which was beta but had civic changes from 1.75C. I am not sure what the differences are, so you would have to install the latest (pre AND 2.0) version of AND (1.76X).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Yes my bad, I was referring to 1.75C. Afforess was speaking about 1.76 which was beta but had civic changes from 1.75C. I am not sure what the differences are, so you would have to install the latest (pre AND 2.0) version of AND (1.76X).

That's what I've done, but I've seen no different civics; just some difference in +X or -Y but civics looks the same to me...

 

[JosEPh_II]

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