Anglican schism seems imminent...

[Che Guava]

Gay bishop move rejected by Kenya


The head of Kenya's Anglican Church has rejected a compromise over gay bishops by US Episcopal Church leaders.

They have said they will halt the ordination of gay bishops and public blessings of same-sex relationships to prevent a split in the Anglican Church.

"That word 'halt' is not enough," said Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi.

Many African Anglicans threatened to leave the worldwide Anglican Communion after the ordination of the first openly gay bishop four years ago.

The American Church was told to meet the conditions by 30 September or lose membership of the communion.

US bishops made the decision after a six-day meeting in New Orleans.

The meeting was attended in part by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who urged the Episcopal Church to make concessions for the sake of unity.

'Repent'

Last month, Archbishop Nzimbi presided over the consecration of two US bishops, Bill Murdoch and Bill Atwood, who left the US branch of the Anglican Church - the Episcopal Church - after it consecrated an openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson, in 2003.

The Kenyan archbishop said the US church leaders' comments did not go far enough.

"What we expected to come from them is to repent - that this is a sin in the eyes of the Lord and repentance is what me, in particular, and others expected to hear coming from this church," he said.

Correspondents say it was hoped the agreement would help defuse the crisis.

But Assistant Bishop of Kampala, Ugandan David Zac Niringiye, says it was "not a change of heart" and showed the church was already split.

"What this situation has brought to the fore is the malaise - something much deeper - that the entire communion has not dealt with and the consecration of Bishop Gene really brought to the surface something that was there," he told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme.

"It is not the same church because it's broken on very fundamental lines."

Traditionalists in the US are already making plans to set up their own independent church.

Conservative churchgoers believe homosexuality is contrary to the Church's teachings.

However, liberal Anglicans have argued that biblical teachings on justice and inclusion should take precedence.

The Episcopal bishops did reaffirm their commitment to the civil rights of gay people and said they opposed any violence towards them or violation of their dignity.

The meeting in New Orleans follows a summit of Anglican leaders in Tanzania earlier in the year which gave the US Episcopal Church a deadline of 30 September to define its position on the issue.

The leaders threatened that a failure to do so would leave their relationship with the US branch of Anglicanism "damaged at best".

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So what do we think, is the Anglican Communion headed for a full split?

Any Episcopalians, or other Anglicans here, have you decided which side you might be on in the event of a split?

 

[Bill3000]

The idea that a western church must conform to the ideals of the African[/] churches seems fundamentally disturbing to me. Probably would be better if the African churches left rather than the Episcopalian.

 

[Che Guava]

The idea that a western church must conform to the ideals of the African[/] churches seems fundamentally disturbing to me. Probably would be better if the African churches left rather than the Episcopalian.

That would seem the reasonable thing to me too. It'll be interesting to see where the Church of England ends up in this whole fracas...

 

[Elrohir]

Conservative churchgoers believe homosexuality is contrary to the Church's teachings.

However, liberal Anglicans have argued that biblical teachings on justice and inclusion should take precedence.

Because the message of the Bible could best be summed up as "It's OK to do bad things! We don't care!" Uh....right. You should be loving towards people who sin, even openly, but you shouldn't say that it's A-OK just because you want to be "tolerant" and "nice" to them.

And yes, I do think a split will happen. I think the African Episcopalians, the conservative Americans and the conservatives from other places around the globe (Maybe some in India or South America? Probably not many) will form a new denomination, although they'll probably insist that they are the "true" Anglican church. Meanwhile, the "original" Anglican church will continue to decline into obscurity and irrelevancy.

 

[Bill3000]

Because the message of the Bible could best be summed up as "It's OK to do bad things! We don't care!" Uh....right. You should be loving towards people who sin, even openly, but you shouldn't say that it's A-OK just because you want to be "tolerant" and "nice" to them.

The conservative opinions toward homosexuals is hardly anything but "loving", really. Besides, judge not lest you be judged yourself and whatnot.

And yes, I do think a split will happen. I think the African Episcopalians, the conservative Americans and the conservatives from other places around the globe (Maybe some in India or South America? Probably not many) will form a new denomination, although they'll probably insist that they are the "true" Anglican church. Meanwhile, the "original" Anglican church will continue to decline into obscurity and irrelevancy.

Doubt that they would become obscure.

 

[Elrohir]

The conservative opinions toward homosexuals is hardly anything but "loving", really. Besides, judge not lest you be judged yourself and whatnot.

Do you hold the same opinion towards drug addicts or alcoholics or people with eating disorders, for instance? That they should be treated as normal, with everyone accepting their problems just as perfectly normal "quirks"?

You wouldn't leave your brother as a crack addict, or a drunk in some alley. Why should it be surprising, then, if many Christians take a similarly dim view of leaving homosexuals entirely alone and not even expressing their view that their actions are harmful and wrong?

I don't bother homosexuals, and I would certainly never hurt one. (At least for being homosexual - I would in self defense, for instance, but I wouldn't do anything to a homosexual that I wouldn't do in teh same situation to a heterosexual) But I'm not going to lie about what I think if I think they are engaged in self-destructive behavior.

Doubt that they would become obscure.

Obscure? Maybe not. Less powerful? Definitely.

 

[Bill3000]

Do you hold the same opinion towards drug addicts or alcoholics or people with eating disorders, for instance? That they should be treated as normal, with everyone accepting their problems just as perfectly normal "quirks"?

...But I'm not going to lie about what I think if I think they are engaged in self-destructive behavior.

Outside of the persecution of homosexuality, homosexuality is not destructive. That's absurd; besides, there's plenty of things that are considered sins that are not "destructive."

You wouldn't leave your brother as a crack addict, or a drunk in some alley. Why should it be surprising, then, if many Christians take a similarly dim view of leaving homosexuals entirely alone and not even expressing their view that their actions are harmful and wrong?

I don't bother homosexuals, and I would certainly never hurt one. (At least for being homosexual - I would in self defense, for instance, but I wouldn't do anything to a homosexual that I wouldn't do in teh same situation to a heterosexual)

The premise you have here is that all Christians believe that the sexual identity, the act itself, and all intentions thereof is a sin. Liberal Christians often have a different interpretation. The concept of sexual identity didn't even exist at the time, for example.

As well, if you're going to appeal to Paul, you'd have to accept what else are in his wirtings as well, such as not wearing gold or pearls, condemning women preaching, and the acceptance of slavery.

 

[MobBoss]

Good for the Africans for not compromising their faith. I applaud them.

 

[holy king]

in what way do homosexuals as homosexuals act self destructive, elrohir?

and mob, your opinions can really be disgusting...

 

[MobBoss]

in what way do homosexuals as homosexuals act self destructive, elrohir?

and mob, your opinions can really be disgusting...

/Meh......who cares what you think? Not me, thats for sure. Apparently, anything that you dont agree with is patently 'disgusting'. Again, I reiterate it...Good for the Africans for sticking to what they believe is right. I happen to agree with them.

 

[holy king]

if you dont care dont reply...

 

[JollyRoger]

Gotta keep the gays promiscuous. Otherwise, what is one to do when they want a "massage" with their meth or get bored in an airport bathroom stall?

As for the potential schism, it may happen. In the U.S. , I can see many churches getting mixed up in battles over issues tied to recognoition of gay leadership and marriage. Lot's of tax-exempt property to secure if you can get control of a given congregation.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Good for the Africans for not compromising their faith. I applaud them.

Hes right. Nothing more ridiculous than religions changing their views because they're not popular anymore.

 

[Bill3000]

Hes right. Nothing more ridiculous than religions changing their views because they're not popular anymore.

I'm pretty sure that's precisely what every sect does, even if it isn't often consciously. Fundamentalist Christianity actually has many innovative and traditionally heterodox opinions (the bible being the sole source of belief, Christ dying in place of other people's sins, a theology on Jesus that completely ignores Jesus' human nature, rapture and dispensationalism) despite their denial of it. Or more fundamentally, protestantism.

And I'm pretty sure that's precisely what most people desire of Islam, too.

So in the end, it's not ridiculous - it's precisely what happens to every religion.

 

[Che Guava]

Hes right. Nothing more ridiculous than religions changing their views because they're not popular anymore.

Except maybe not letting your beleifs evolve at all

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

If only there were a single authoritative head of the church, like one bishop chosen out of the others or even a council of the bishops who could make definitive...maybe even infallible statements that could settle issues like this...if only...

 

[MobBoss]

Except maybe not letting your beleifs evolve at all

Some things shouldnt change Che....they are the same yesterday, today and will be the same tomorrow.

 

[Bill3000]

Some things shouldnt change Che....they are the same yesterday, today and will be the same tomorrow.

Despite the fact that they do change, and it's the illusion that it is permanent that is important.

 

[MobBoss]

Despite the fact that they do change, and it's the illusion that it is permanent that is important.

So much for you taking your own advice.

And no Bill...not all things change. Even you should be honest enough to admit this. I think.

 

[JollyRoger]

Some things shouldnt change Che....they are the same yesterday, today and will be the same tomorrow.

Yep and eventually the religious institutions catch up with the rest of the world on being correct. Not many flat earthers left these days.