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Animals and Metals

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Thunderbrd, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Ok, so I feel we are still in desperate need of getting on the same sheet of music here as a team. We could quickly resolve all our problems with these but we MUST be in agreement as to how to proceed forward. There are a lot of issues we currently have and a lot of issues being made where we don't have one. There are things we need to accomplish to get it all aligned and working properly and the AI cannot be fully fleshed out on these subjects until that happens.

    @Dancing Hoskuld I can empathize with RL getting in the way of you completing this and other projects at the moment and I can also empathize with the frustration that thinking through and rethinking through all this has led to and the frustration of the massive volume of effort that it takes and has taken to try to get things all working the same way and how much you've rethought things in the middle of the process and where that has us now. I'm not starting this thread to complain but to put an end to this - we as a team must come together and correct our problems here once and for all and then we will never have to worry about this again.

    Whisperr and I are both very frustrated about the state of things on this and I don't think we're alone. Many players are also cocking their head in confusion. I know everything we've all decided about this was in the effort of reducing confusion but much of these decisions have only served to increase that confusion.

    The main thing causing an issue right now is the renaming of the National Breeders and Smelters to 'Not in any city X'. Huh?

    I get it actually, but I don't see how any player would. Besides, that's also missing the point severely.

    I spent a lot of time previously speaking with Hydro and others on these matters as they were coming together and as a team we decided on the way things would operate. It's important to note that they were meant to operate in a different manner and for different reasons between metal supply and animal supply chains.

    Part of the confusion regarding the terminology 'National' that DH was trying to clear up is that with Metals, National Smelter gives nationwide access to ingots, but with Animal Breeders, it gives mere vicinity access in the city they are constructed. It was supposed to work that way.

    Metals are supposed to work as follows:

    With X metal type ingots, provided by a Smelter or National Smelter, you can build the X metal type forge that gives access to wares.

    Since National Smelters GIVE national access to Ingots AND are National Wonders, they should be called National buildings. This makes it clear to the player that it is intended that they CAN provide what they deliver for the whole nation. They provide ingots to all cities in the nation.

    You don't NEED a National smelter for that if you have vicinity access to a source of Ore - where you have this, you can then construct a local Smelter. Said local smelter building still gives national access to ingots.

    However, the National Smelter is constructable (at much later tech prereqs) purely for having national level access to Ore. Thus you can trade for Ore and be able to build a National Smelter anywhere (limit 1) but you cannot build a normal smelter just for having access to Ore through a trade - you must have it in vicinity for that.

    Therefore, if you don't have a local vicinity access to the metal ore, you must wait until your shipping infrastructure, represented through the techs Seafaring or Road Building, is enhanced to the point to enable the full on trade of such ores in volume enough to enable the National Smelter.

    With national level access to Ingots, the Forge of that type of metal is constructable in any city you possess. Those forges give access to wares. With access, national or vicinity, to wares, you can train any unit that requires said wares.

    Thus you can cut to the chase and trade directly for wares, which is something even the AI will tend to want to produce a lot of since the Forge buildings that produce them are worth constructing everywhere you can for the added production and gold benefits (but could be wisely avoided in some places due to the unhealth penalty, something I will need to teach the AI at some point since they don't understand causes not to build something, only causes to).

    Even if you are just trading for wares, you can now train units and construct buildings that require that metal in it's most refined form.


    However, the animals are supposed to work a bit differently. You are required to have vicinity access to a breeding source, be it a herd or a map resource that's been improved and routed in local city vicinity, as well as a training building, to be able to access animal units.

    The National Breeder was not intended to be giving a vicinity source level access to that animal to all cities in your nation. Instead, it was intended to be the building you could construct that converted a source of that animal (be it outside your city vicinity but improved and routed back to your nation nevertheless, or traded for from another nation) TO a vicinity source in the city it was built. Now, because it gives a bonus in production and a few other things, I balk at saying it should not be constructable in ANY city, whether you currently have vicinity access there or not. I believe it should be something you CAN construct in your capital or whatever production or gold center you want to add that bonus to. THE point is that if you ever do lose vicinity access via other means or if you haven't got vicinity access yet, this building is the keystone to making vicinity access possible and from there you can then spread that animal to other cities in your nation, giving those cities vicinity sources as well. In fact, it's even nicer to build all these in the same city so that you know which city you have dedicated to being your source for all animals to be spread.

    Since this gets confusing for players to have National Smelters and National Breeders work differently, they should not both be called National. IMO, we should change the name of the National Breeders to Central Breeders. Where these are built has been designated as the city where you collect and breed central breeding specimens for distribution.

    2 other ways can get you the Animal access... Either the resource is there in vicinity and you have improved it and routed it or you have built a Herd (or Common Breeder) building there with an animal of the type that can do so. From there you can then train a Tamed Animal, good for battle even in some cases, that can be transported to another city and used to plant another local herd or common breeder. I balk a bit at making myths and legends have anything to do with this to be honest because although they CAN stand in as a record of the people having interacted with that creature, they do not imply that you actually have domesticated access to that creature. It is my assertion, and I'm fully willing to put the work in to make this happen, that vicinity access to the animal should be based on Herd/Breeder buildings only.

    I also believe that each and every animal type that is also a resource should have a Herd/Breeder and an accompanying Tamed Animal type unit, with a specific Animal Training building for that type to give final access to training units based on those animals.

    I don't know why we should need 'breeding pairs'. These should just be simplified back to being Tamed Animal unit types which we assume are a breedable sample as well as potentially trained for fighting.

    Not all animals need to be resources. Those animals CAN be spread by giving universal access through a generic Animal Trainer building that enables any tamed animal which you have a myth for so that those tamed animals can be used to spread about the myths. That said, I honestly think that myths should be separated here again into new Animal Breeder buildings. Not all of them must give production, maybe most are just for pets and give a little gold and/or culture or something. These would be generated with the Tamed Animal of that type.

    I know it's a lot to smooth over all the animals so they operate like this, but wasn't this the original plan? Wasn't this what we were all enjoying the most when it was nearly put together in full this way?

    This way, trading units CAN be used to spread animals internationally but is not required, which is good because the AI is never going to understand it properly if it is a requirement. You can simply trade for the animal, Construct the Central Breeding facility for that animal, and now you have a vicinity access from which you can build a trainer and then Tamed animal units of that type and spread those to all of your cities.

    If we can all agree THIS is the approach to finalize and finish and complete, than I would gladly dedicate time to dramatically improving the AI on Tamed Animal use and spreading and give us some more automation options for being able to do this a lot easier as well. I also think a little screen work could be done somewhere that can give us an overview of what animals we have access to where.

    THIS would be the most wonderful thing to have completely sorted out for a new release, IMO, because once we have this done and adding new animals is just a simple process of checking off boxes of tasks, then we can finally move forward and never have to worry about reworking this stuff again. And we can get this done as a team rather than heaping all the responsibility of it up onto one modder.

    Note: To complete this properly there are animal resources that must be made into units, both wild and tamed, and the accompanying buildings as well.

    Also, having animals be able to place themselves as bonuses on the map is also cool BUT will require some extensive additional AI to do it in a way that won't cause dramatic problems in the game. Again, I'm happy to do this work and we've begun by making the tag that enables such placement, though I also think a rancher unit would be good, maybe even a better way to go about it tbh. But that's more food for discussion. And a lot more effort, both in text display design for that tag and certainly in AI, no matter how it is implemented.


    If this doesn't make sense to anyone or if anyone wishes to suggest a different course to what this is mapping out, please discuss. I'm not looking to start up on doing this right away but rather to define who's doing what part of this and to make sure we are all in agreement that we have mapped out a plan that will work for all players and modders.
     
  2. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    There are X near city autobuildings, that correspond those national smelters and breeders.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Of course, they've just been renamed to that, which every player I hear from on this is finding to be extremely confusing, even objectionable due to there being no real world relevance to this naming convention. PREVIOUSLY, they were named National Smelter and National Breeder. To clarify, I believe they should be National Smelters and Central Breeders so that they don't sound like they should do the same things.
     
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    No, those autobuildings are separate things from renamed national smelters/breeders.

    Spoiler :

    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-06 23-04-10-67.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-06 23-04-25-96.jpg
    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-06 23-07-41-68.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-06 23-07-50-91.jpg
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  6. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    So if I import horse because I don't have a horse resource, will these new buildings allow me to make Tamed horse if I have Animal Tamer building? And yes this is convoluted.
     
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Nope, but I can change Tamed Elephant/Camel/Horse prereqs, so they would need Animal Trainer - it already needs their current prereqs OR National Breeder for now.
    Tamed Elephant/Camel/Horse now require X Trainer (Prehistoric era building, they contain old prereqs + National Breeder) and Animal Tamer Complex (require Specialization - tech in last third part of Ancient Era) and Stable (one of three versions).
    Those Tamed Animals can place Herd building, that provides Animal resource acting as vicinity, only Tamed Horse can place resource on map.

    And yeah currently this stuff is messy as hell - he wanted to make it more realistic, but apparently he didn't knew how some tags work (Two pages of telling him that boolean - on/off switch - of 0 is same as no boolean here in case of this tag), and that FreeBuilding tag isn't 100% reliable.

    Looks like Breeding Pair - Horse is meant for that on earlier period, but quickly gets unbuildable.
    It requires Horse myth AND [Horse Breeder (quickly replaced by Animal Tamer Complex making it useless) OR National Horse Breeder].
    It can build horse herd inside of city effectively providing resource in vicinity.
    Between Wheel and Specialization (or later until you build Animal Taming Complex) you can build Breeding Pair.
    But that only makes more mess, as you need Horse myth anyway.

    Vicinity Autobuildings are meant to block placing smelter/breeder in vicinity of resource.

    I see that National Smelters are meant to be buildable in beginning of Classical (requires roads or ship building unlocked on beginning of that era) era including ones unlocked in early Ancient era.
    So if resource is few tiles too far then you should build city here right away.
    I removed those classical tech requirements some time ago on assumption, that it doesn't make sense if ore is only one tile too far - it was when I was revising building requirements.
    Should I add back those?

    Edit: I renamed and adjusted some stuff to be more sane for now.
    @Dancing Hoskuld feel free to change things when you come back.

    I also added back this Road/Ship Building prereq to National Smelters, so they are like National Breeders with Wheel (Horses only) and Specialization (Horses/Camels/Elephants) tech requirements.
    I blanket-added those requirements, so some smelters may have redundant tech prereqs (Ship/Road Building).
    You still can get Ingots/Wares from AI in Ancient era, if you don't have resource in vicinity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  8. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Did not know that a Tamed horse could Place a Horse resource on a empty resource tile!

    And my question only dealt with the chain of herds, then farms, and then tamed animal that can be moved to other cities in need to repeat the process.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Whether it works or not this reliance on hidden buildings to create an effect for realism that isn't realistic is just... I cannot express how much I dislike the direction this is going and I'm biting my tongue here to keep things from being rude. There's no reason not to allow the Central Breeders to go into any city you want to put them, even if that city already has vicinity access. There's no reason not to allow them to be the way you'd get access to animal units once you are trading for them as a resource. Why should we complicate it even further than that?

    Is there ANY real world reason for this? It strikes me that this actually goes directly against how this usually works. I get that vicinity is already there so why (though in the case of the metals, why not build the normal one instead) would you want to - except that there really should be a reason you WOULD want to, like maybe you get to train units that require that metal or animal faster in the city with the central breeder or national smelter. Far better to allow this than to create more autobuildings clogging up processing and obfuscating intentions for the player.

    You wrecked the intention here, which was to show that unless you have good enough roads and other shipping methods established, ore that's too far away is useless. Once Road Building or Seamanship is reached, then the National Smelter can be built where all Ore can be shipped to for processing into ingots if you didn't have any ore source close enough to a city that could build a localized smelter for local ore. That was the intention of the way this was originally setup and it was working as intended originally.

    Yep, that's another side of the intention, if you can't do it for yourself it promotes the need to arrange a trade to a nation that got lucky enough to be able to do it - once they do they usually generate a lot of wares as all their cities can do so with access to ingots.
     
  10. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Well, Tamed Horse (And breeding pair before tamed horse) display tooltip, that they can place bonus on map, they can also place herd in city among few other stuff.
    All tamed animals display help tooltip, where it says what it can do.
    Animal trainer is effectively merging of National Breeder and Animal Farm and Herd routes - one of those three are required to build Animal Trainer and then subsequently Tamed Animal (in addition to Tamed Animal Complex that is needed for it).

    There is no actual reason for this, I was saying what DH wanted to do - I guess I could step on DH's toes and delete/comment out those vicinity autobuildings.

    I already restored that tech requirement for national smelters in my last commit, so now they work as designed.
    I posted list of changes to buildings back then, but I guess you didn't read it :p
     
  11. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    100% agreed. But I also think Raxxo is trying to protect DH's view over all this since it is his inventions (if I understand it all right).
     
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Sorry but I don't have all the civilopedia and tool tips memorized. My fault then for being so uninformed.
     
  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Yeah, I tried to explain that stuff from DH's perspective, what he wanted to do.
    I think that this is overcomplicating things too.

    They are displayed if you hover over unit when adding things to queue.

    Spoiler :

    Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-07 17-42-31-18.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-07 17-44-11-14.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-07 17-43-29-71.jpg Civ4BeyondSword 2018-12-07 17-46-06-29.jpg

    This is on quick test to get unit list in city screen.

    Also you get those tooltips if you hover over buildings and units in tech splash screen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing with Raxo personally. I'm arguing with the setup as it is and I'm not too concerned with 'whom it may concern'. I'm hoping that @Dancing Hoskuld will be able to defend his decisions in either a satisfactory manner that makes sense to all those who agree with my position on this, self included, or will see the light and give consent to it being changed. I don't want to disrespectfully bulldoze it immediately... but ONLY because I have respect for the modder, not because I like what we have. I'm hoping that we can come to a consensus here rather than have to stand on differing sides of a very frustrating divide. Players encountering this stuff are not happy with what they are seeing and I have to say I feel like the whole setup was a snide response to people expressing confusion over the differences between meanings in National Breeders and National Smelters, though I could be wrong and it was actually an honest attempt to make a strange design intention manifest.

    DH has explained that he wants these buildings to not be available in cities that already have vicinity access, but I really dislike that approach because it is antagonistic to players that like to specialize their cities to various roles - it forces you to pick cities you'd really prefer to not build these wonders in most of the time because you've already spread herds from hunting and thus denied the ability to put these buildings in your prime cities where you most want the benefits they bring (beyond the mere vicinity access.) Maybe he'd prefer in that case that we just shrug and not bother building these national wonders anywhere if we don't really need he vicinity access somewhere but then it's annoying to see a good National Wonder being suggested for construction constantly. We could simply add a training speed bonus to horse units to make it valid anywhere if that's an issue and then let them be constructed anywhere. If you already have vicinity access somewhere then it doesn't matter where it gets built so much as you just construct it wherever you want to be training your Tamed Animals.

    And at what point did we get confused between the differences in intention regarding the metal ones that they even came into this discussion in the first place? Thank you for repairing those Raxo.

    So no, I'm not attacking you Raxo... looking for your opinions to be shared in a persuasive manner regardless of whatever they may be. We are way too concerned with taking things personally around here sometimes and hold back on how we feel when we could really dig deeper and get at the heart of why we like or dislike things and understand that's all anyone is really trying to express - and I include myself in this criticism as well - I too can take things far too personally. I know you were trying to share your understanding of DH's design. I get it too. This is all intended to try to persuade us to take another path. Unfortunately, the one person I think I need to persuade here is a bit distracted from the mod. I get that too. So I suppose we're frozen in frustrated for a while. But it finally came to me to see the whole picture of this setup and I wanted to lay it out there what I'm thinking about it and how I feel it should go. I figure he's probably seeing some things, some reasons, I still am not, for some of the design decisions and direction he's headed with some of this. I'm hoping to hear those here too.

    And no, Raxo, I'm NOT asking you to step in and act. Not until we have an agreed to course of design action.
    It's new and the tag it's using (assuming it's using the new tag already - is it Raxo?) hasn't been fully fleshed out with text where it should be and AI yet. I didn't know it had been implemented in any manner yet either but was waiting to see it working in-game somewhere. Nobody yet told me it had been added to horses already. So I'm glad to find this out as well.
     
  15. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    No units are using new resource tags yet.

    This is simple XML help entry - you can search for Tamed Horse for example, and you see, that it has <help> tag.
    <Help>TXT_KEY_UNIT_TAMED_HORSE_HELP</Help>
    CIV4UnitInfos

    <Tag>TXT_KEY_UNIT_TAMED_HORSE_HELP</Tag>
    <English>[COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_TEXT]Build[COLOR_REVERT] Horse Herd, Carnival, Herbavour Enclosure, Zoo and Taxidermist[NEWLINE][ICON_BULLET]May place [COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_TEXT]horse[COLOR_REVERT] resource on map</English>
    Beastmaster_Help_CIV4GameText
    EDIT: Beastmaster help entries were added in SVN 9590 in April 2017.
    These help entries could be older than that - probably were moved from other folder.

    I added help entries to Space Units buildable on Earth too, so players can know to not build them if not playing on space map.

    As for metal smelters I removed GOM tech requirements as I thought it was mistake from past - Ancient era ones had too low construction costs as they were effectively unlocked in early Classical era - I didn't knew, that those ancient smelters were purposefully delayed, but I wrote it here.
    It was when I was revising all building prereqs.
    I made list of changed buildings back then - added link to it on SVN changelog.

    My changes to that National Smelter/Breeder were cosmetic, so it is still here but with better names and without resource redundancies (No need for <bonus> if <rawVicinityBonus> is here) in those autobuilt vicinity buildings.
    Only thing that I changed that has actual ingame impact was that Tamed Animals doesn't need animal in vicinity anymore - Animal Trainer instead of animal farm/myth.
    Animal Trainer needs Animal Farm or Herd or National Breeder.

    Also there was no need to comment out translations, as often translations doesn't agree with English entry.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I know a lot of this stuff has been brought up but you have to understand with old designs they can be hard to remember how we planned things out until you take time to think it all through again and yes, lately I've been just cursory glancing at a lot to try to keep up somewhat but have not taken time to look deeply at things enough nor nearly as much as should've been.
     
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  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    So just to clarify here:
    1) The Animal Trainer buildings that Camel/Elephant/Horse require are denoted as Horse Trainer, Elephant Trainer, Camel Trainer and so on right?
    2)
    I think there's been a little confusion on this. Tamed animals should require a vicinity source of the bonus. They should also require the Animal Trainer, which is classically how the vicinity source requirement is enforced (by having the Animal Trainer also require vicinity resource access). ONLY the Central Animal Breeder should be constructable as a result of having access to that Animal on a casual 'I have the bonus somewhere being delivered to my nation - through trade or a distant source' basis.

    However, the Central Animal Breeder, Having an improved and routed bonus of that animal within city radius, or an Animal Herd (or other source building created by that animal type) delivers Vicinity access to the city they are in by giving that animal as a bonus in their building tags.

    (This is horrendously messing with corps by doubling up so much on bonus sources but we can address that later.)

    THIS is the point of the Central Animal Breeder National Wonders, that they be the ONLY way that you can take trade of an animal bonus and convert it to actual vicinity access somewhere. For this reason is why DH wants to say they can only be built where vicinity access doesn't currently exist. I am also suggesting right now, however, that we make them get a training speed bonus for units based on this animal type (by combat class can be easily done with our multiple combat class types) and then not bother to restrict them away from any city just because the city already HAS vicinity access to that resource. A player wants to construct these Central Animal Breeders wherever he wants to ensure he'll always be able to train his Tamed Animals from, even if he already can train that type there.

    THEN an Animal Trainer building is also a prerequisite for the animal units because it's the Training side of the Breeding AND Training process.

    3)
    IF we are ALL willing to enable the construction of the Central Animal Breeder buildings to wherever the player damn well wants to put them, then we shouldn't need these autobuildings at all to craft a denial of the ability to build them where a vicinity access may already exist. I personally find there to be no good cause to deny this, particularly if we make them more valuable than JUST providing vicinity access from national bonus access.

    @ the whole team, please let me hear your opinion on #3 just so we have a tally in place for DH when he checks in on this.
     
  18. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    1. Yes.

    2. Vicinity is effectively OR requirement now:
    For example to make Tamed Horse you need Animal Tamer Complex AND Horse Trainer AND Stable or its upgrades.
    Horse Trainer needs Horse Farm (old requirement of Tamed Horse) - vicinity OR Herd Horse - resource in city OR Central Breeder - Horse - resource anywhere in empire or traded by AI.

    I'm not sure if Central Breeder actually gives resource.
    I did that because Joseph couldn't make any use of Horses despite this Central Breeder being built.

    3. I don't think this restriction is needed - he wanted to somehow separate resource not vicinity but within borders and resource traded by AI.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  19. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    I agree with you, Those national resource buildings have worked perfectly for many years now (at least since I started modding C2C) until the recent changes to them.
     
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  20. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Chieftain

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    Me too.
     
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