"Anonymous Vows Personal Attacks on U.S. Military Families, "War" on U.S."

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Patroklos

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Anyone want to guess how many court martial proceedings are processed every year? Mobboss, can you help us out here?
 

MobBoss

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Of course it was, just like all the other torture and murder of innocent civilians. It has all been extensively assessed in a completely impartial manner, and all the people who were even slightly involved have been identitifed and punished.

Abu Ghraib Investigator Details Pentagon Cover-Up: ‘I Thought I Was In The Mafia’

Intel Staffer Cites Abu Ghraib Cover-Up

Rumsfeld's Abu Ghraib Cover-Up Revealed

Cover-Up of Abu Ghraib Torture Puts Troops at Risk

Alledged cover-up doesnt mean there was a cover up. None of those links actually prove anything, and the alternet and progress ones are quite biased in their opinion.

Of course there is no abuse reported there. Just like Pvt. Manning...

You are making some specific allegations against the US Disciplinary Barracks. Can you provide valid proof to back up that claim?

You do realize who is overseeing his stay, right? Do you think she is the only female likely there?

Simply because the section is overseen by a female warrant officer that is simply not proof that the guards are female, nor that he has to report naked to one each morning.

Now then, can you show me in the story where it said he was forced to report naked to female guards, or did you make an assumption this was the case simply because the section is overseen by a woman warrant officer?
 

JollyRoger

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I think the initial set of charges carried a sentence upwards of 50+ years. The additional ones push it to life in prison.
Civilian statutes only specify life sentence and death penalty charges as punishment potential for denial of bail. The only other relevant statutory factor would have been flight risk and a good defense lawyer would have signed his client up to all sorts of bail conditions to overcome any flight risk argument.
 

Formaldehyde

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Alledged cover-up doesnt mean there was a cover up. None of those links actually prove anything, and the alternet and progress ones are quite biased in their opinion.
I never claimed they were "proof". But as you can clearly see, history has yet to document the obvious. And you are again peremptorily dismissing facts provided in two of the articles because they are merely "biased"?

You are making some specific allegations against the US Disciplinary Barracks. Can you provide valid proof to back up that claim?
There is nothing "specific" about my allegations. I am claiming that if Pvt Manning is so obviously abused in such an absurd manner, even before his so-called trial, that it quite likely to occur at all levels of this farce of a judicial system. That essentially the same people with the same training ran Abu Ghraib, Baghram, and Gitmo provide even more credence that the system is hopelessly broken. They seem to understand following orders much more than they do acting in a legal, just, and fair manner.

Simply because the section is overseen by a female warrant officer that is simply not proof that the guards are female, nor that he has to report naked to one each morning.
So you are contending that the CWO is never present in her own cellblock during these periods?
 

JollyRoger

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Anyone want to guess how many court martial proceedings are processed every year? Mobboss, can you help us out here?
In 2009, it was 1,184 Army, 1,088 Navy/Marines, 641 Air Force, and 45 Coast Guard. A lot lower than I thought, especially given the number of judges.

http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/annual/FY09AnnualReport.pdf

By contrast, one suburban/rural county that I have cases in typically handles indicted charges in the 10,000 - 15,000 range per year with a lot fewer DA/judge resources than the military.
 

ParadigmShifter

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You only get discharged for breaking "don't ask don't tell" though - hence why the navy figure is low compared to the army.
 

Patroklos

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Whatever joke you were trying to make it didn't carry.

In any case, the point is there are a lot. Most for normal criminal type stuff and not national security cases. So my question to Form is for him to prove, if we make the laughable assumption that all the cases he mentioned were in fact miscarriages of justice to stroke his conspiracy tendancies, how he justifies his claim that the entire military justice system is broken. His cases are less than .02% of all court marshals in a normal year, he is making quite the extrapolation.
 

JollyRoger

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In any case, the point is there are a lot.
It is not really that high of a volume given the number of judges. You really should spend a day at a criminal docket call in Collin, Denton, or Dallas, Texas counties. Some of those judges get more done by 9 a.m. than it appears that the typical military judge gets done all month. Heck, even the district judge (felony only) in rural Webb County has a tougher workload.

I think I have found an area where we can cut the defense budget.
 

ParadigmShifter

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Winston Churchill said:
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.

Although that's probably a misquote. It is true though.

EDIT: I mean look at this album from the Pogues

 

MobBoss

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Civilian statutes only specify life sentence and death penalty charges as punishment potential for denial of bail. The only other relevant statutory factor would have been flight risk and a good defense lawyer would have signed his client up to all sorts of bail conditions to overcome any flight risk argument.

Well, now with the inclusion of the charge of treasonous activity, it is indeed now a capital crime.

I never claimed they were "proof". But as you can clearly see, history has yet to document the obvious. And you are again peremptorily dismissing facts provided in two of the articles because they are merely "biased"?

There is nothing "specific" about my allegations. I am claiming that if Pvt Manning is so obviously abused in such an absurd manner, even before his so-called trial, that it quite likely to occur at all levels of this farce of a judicial system. That essentially the same people with the same training ran Abu Ghraib, Baghram, and Gitmo provide even more credence that the system is hopelessly broken. They seem to understand following orders much more than they do acting in a legal, just, and fair manner.

So you are contending that the CWO is never present in her own cellblock during these periods?

As to the claims of cover-up, I dont think that obvious at all, and fwiw, arent the dates of some of those stories published prior to final resolution of the Abu Graib issue? The ABC news story is very careful to show that such claims are indeed only alledged and not just simple fact as you claim. I would consider it the most valid of the sources you offer.

I would ask you to refrain from calling this a farce, as it is nothing of the sort. It is deadly serious business, and fwiw, those guarding Manning are correct to take his comments about suicide seriously which have led to his current predicament.

As to the the female WO in charge.....what I am 'contending' is that there is no proof in the story in the OP that says he reports naked to female guards. If your basis for making this claim is simply that the OIC of that block is a female then it is simply assumption on your part.

Case in point, while there are indeed females in the Military Police, its routinely a pretty small faction in comparison to other MOSs that women serve in. As such, it is not uncommon to only have 1 or 2 women in a small detachment like that - if any at all. Now, I am not saying women dont guard him - they very well could be - but the story doesnt say that one way or the other. So your claim of him being humilated that way isnt supported by the facts in the OP. Thats what I am saying.

In 2009, it was 1,184 Army, 1,088 Navy/Marines, 641 Air Force, and 45 Coast Guard. A lot lower than I thought, especially given the number of judges.

http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/annual/FY09AnnualReport.pdf

I was going to get to that, and thats the yearly report published for US Courts Martials. What it doesnt include are lower forms of punishment, like Article 15s and General Officer reprimands.

By contrast, one suburban/rural county that I have cases in typically handles indicted charges in the 10,000 - 15,000 range per year with a lot fewer DA/judge resources than the military.

People are often surprised that the 'crime rate' in the military is almost always significantly lower than its civilian counterpart.

You only get discharged for breaking "don't ask don't tell" though - hence why the navy figure is low compared to the army.

I would be willing to bet there are more gays in the Army and Air Force than in the Navy/Marines. Especially considering the numbers involved.
 

ParadigmShifter

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It's tough when you are on a boat in the middle of the ocean away from the nearest brothel though.

I'm just winding up you military types anyway ;) Don't take it too seriously.

These guys don't:


Link to video.
 

JollyRoger

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Well, now with the inclusion of the charge of treasonous activity, it is indeed now a capital crime.
Correct, but in a civilian court, he would have been free until the government finally got around to making that charge and if he had obeyed all the conditions of bail for that long, it is likely the judge would still let him remain free, perhaps subject to a couple of more conditions.
I was going to get to that, and thats the yearly report published for US Courts Martials. What it doesnt include are lower forms of punishment, like Article 15s and General Officer reprimands.
It actually includes stats on that, but I restricted my answer to what was aksed. The nonjudicial punishment numbers were higher than I expected.
People are often surprised that the 'crime rate' in the military is almost always significantly lower than its civilian counterpart.
I'm not, as crime rates are often tied to poverty and in the military, the entire population is employed. Plus you are screening out many that have a criminal record, so you are not getting hit with the repeat offenses that subgroup tends to have.
 

MobBoss

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Correct, but in a civilian court, he would have been free until the government finally got around to making that charge and if he had obeyed all the conditions of bail for that long, it is likely the judge would still let him remain free, perhaps subject to a couple of more conditions.

It actually includes stats on that, but I restricted my answer on what was aksed. The nonjudical punishment numbers were higher than I expected.

I'm not as crime rates are often tied to poverty and in the military, the entire population is employed. Plus you are screening out many that have a criminal record, so you are not getting hit with the repeat offenses that subgroup tends to have.

Well, its your opinion he would be free in a civilian court, but I think it would remain to be seen. If your point is to argue that there are differences in how a military courts martial is handled and a civilian criminal court then you've established that.

As to the crime rate thing, your average soldier is also subject to a bit more discipline than your average private citizen. Discipline does have some benefits apparently.
 

MobBoss

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Like an increased suicide rate, even although they are supposedly screened for mental illnesses before they are allowed in?

No one is screened for mental illness before they are allowed in. In essence, that sort of thing is part of the police records check, or general medical back ground history (i.e. a check on a yes/no block on a questionaire). There is no actual 'test' or anything. Part of the reasoning behind that is if you have a mental issue of some sort, your're not going to make it through basic training due to what they put you through during that.
 

ParadigmShifter

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They do get counselling that most people wouldn't be able to afford though (see article in edit).
 

JollyRoger

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As to the crime rate thing, your average soldier is also subject to a bit more discipline than your average private citizen. Discipline does have some benefits apparently.
The average soldier and average citizen have the same clean rap sheet. It is likely some combination of discipline and steady income and screening that explain the differences at the non-average criminal end of things.
 

Patroklos

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ParadigmShifter

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So - you are advising people not to join the military for the sake of their health and well being then?
 

Patroklos

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No, I would say be aware of the risks and manage them accordingly and make your decision with this knowledge. Another risk to be aware of and manage accordingly: getting shot.
 
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