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Another Blow Against Piety: Chance for a Great Prophet

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by isau, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. isau

    isau Warlord

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    After thinking about it some more I think I know why this particular random factor gets under my skin so much: there's really no strategy to it other than getting to religion earlier and hoping.

    There are a lot of other luck things that happen in the game already, like what tiles you get, who your neighbors are, and so on. But most of those things are obstacles (or boons) you can react to and do something about.

    If you hit the Faith threshold for a Great Prophet and nothing happens for 10+ turns what can you realistically do about it? There isn't anything other than using another method for a Prophet, most of which happen far too late. Founding a religion is a race, just like wonders are. Can you imagine the frustration if, upon completing a wonder, instead of actually finishing it you had a "chance" to get it each turn afterward?

    A few posters have questioned why I only had 4 Faith points. The answer to that is I didn't actually have Piety, and Byzantium, despite being dependant on religion for its UA, has no faith bonuses. I know better than to go with Piety. Cases like this tell me more than ever that Piety is just too random, its too easy to lose the race. I had 4 Faith because of a small desert but was specced for Tradition--had I had had Piety and no desert I'd be one or two points from the same, assuming I could actually pay for temples (not likely). That's not really the point though. The point is that no matter what you do, the fact that getting to the Faith threshold just means you have a "chance" to get your religion puts you at needless risk of investing all that effort and still losing to someone else just based on pure luck, leaving you with nothing. (Luckily in that game I got the final of the 4 available religions but I was still too annoyed to continue.)
     
  2. dragonxxx

    dragonxxx Chieftain

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    its same for the AI anyway, you do not see when the AI misses the prophet too. I am pretty sure sometimes you found religion because the AI got unlucky with the random prophet draws ...
     
  3. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The randomness of GP generation is built into the game (no comment on whether that was a brilliant design decision or poorly thought out--right now "it is what it is").

    If you are interested in a mod solution (at the cost of disabling achievements and HOF), WHoward does have a mod that fixes the cost of pre-Industrial GPs, eliminating the RNG element:

    http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/db6d0ead-b436-4764-857b-5a3a64be32d6/mod.html
     
  4. lockstep

    lockstep Chieftain

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    So true. Also note that there's no random roll when you hit the Pantheon threshold -- you always receive a Pantheon and even get to keep any faith overflow.
     
  5. Rohili

    Rohili Chieftain

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    Well, technically since you know about this game mechanic in advance, you do have the ability to "react" to it by simply accumulating more faith earlier in case you are unlucky and take 10+ turns to pop a GP.

    That said, I've racked my brains but can't think of any good reason why this random element should exist. I think the most plausible reason was one suggested by an earlier poster - it is put in to give a civ a shot at founding a religion even if its faith generation is not as good as other players. Though that begs the question of why such a civ should be given a chance in the first place.
     
  6. bcaiko

    bcaiko Chieftain

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    Maybe players' frustrations could be allayed by making a threshold whereby you will *absolutely* receive a Great Prophet, but keeping 200 at the start of having a *chance* for a Great Prophet.
     
  7. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Chieftain

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    Irrelevant.
    What I meant more accurately is "sloppy design."
     
  8. ToothedBomb

    ToothedBomb Chieftain

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    That makes sense. Still, I detest the random aspect of the prophets.
    I remember missing out on a religion one time because someone built the Hagia Sophia even though I had accumulated more than enough faith.
     
  9. Doc Skillz

    Doc Skillz Chieftain

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    If you open the faith window, does it say "remind me later" or "save for great prophet" for automatic faith purchases? Sometimes I have had to go into this menu and toggle it to GP in order for this unit to spawn.
     
  10. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    That shouldn't be necessary pre-Industrial. "Remind me later" does not block auto-generation of GPs in pre-Industrial eras.
     
  11. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    If you want, change RELIGION_BASE_CHANCE_PROPHET_SPAWN from 5 to 100 in global defines
     
  12. kamex

    kamex Chieftain

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    I agree. Its inconsistent with everything else in the game.

    Maybe the idea was the birth of the prophet is a 'divine act' and shouldn't be perfectly predictable... :crazyeye:
     
  13. apotheoser

    apotheoser Chieftain

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    Kind of shocks me that no one has managed to answer this, but there's actually an obvious answer, though not a very good one: it's to prevent faith hoarding from early game to Industrial era.

    The first Great Prophet isn't the only one where he randomly spawns if you have sufficient faith. That mechanic remains all game, so that you can't hold 10k piety and then hit Industrial and suddenly buy half a dozen Great Persons.

    Now, that said, religion is so totally awfully designed that in many games there is simply nothing to do with your faith. There are a handful of very useful beliefs (Tithe, Jesuit Education, and the ability to buy units with faith) and a handful of "ok" ones and then a lot of pretty awful ones.

    Most of the time there simply isn't anything to do with your faith, especially if you're tall. You just don't need that many missionaries and it's trivial to buy enough Pagodas or whatever.

    Certain beliefs should probably just put into the Piety tree so that there's a legitimate reason to use it. Like the ability to buy pre-industrial land units with Faith; that should be the bonus for completing the tree.
     
  14. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The auto-spawning of GPs pre-Industrial is clearly intended to prevent hoarding of faith, but I think that is independent of the RNG element folks are complianing about. Yes, the RNG element means that your GPs will always cost a bit more than the threshold triggers (200, 300, 500, 800, etc. faith), but the incremental loss of faith from the RNG usually doesn't move the needle much on faith hoarding (leaving aside the odd occasions when the RNG delays GP spawn for 8-10+ turns, I rarely lose more than 5-25 faith on any particular GP spawn).
     
  15. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    GP is guaranteed if you have 300 faith iirc.
    any value between 200 and 300 is a percentage, say you have 266 faith this means your chanse to get GP on the next turn is 66 to 100 (or 71? as at 200 you have a 5% chanse)
     
  16. Gort

    Gort Chieftain

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    I find this doubly irritating, since you not only lose time waiting for the great prophet to spawn, you lose ALL your faith, even the excess, when he does eventually spawn! You get screwed two ways!
     

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