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[GS] Another Era added? But I lost interest three era's ago in industrial.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Dearmad, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. row2infinity

    row2infinity Chieftain

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    Uhh I don’t know about you but growing up playing monopoly would end in screaming and crying. Same for everyone I know. Maybe we’re just little jerks. Hahahaha
     
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  2. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    So your defense of their alleged AI incompetence is that I should fix it for them?
     
  3. Cagarustus

    Cagarustus Prince

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    The point you’ve been arguing ad nauseum is that Firaxis Games should fix the AI yet you seem unwilling or perhaps incapable of fixing it yourself.

    Doesn’t this indicate that maybe the cost of fixing the AI is too great for Firaxis, as it would be too great for you?
     
  4. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    Why would it be a third party's responsibility to fix Firaxis' software? And how can you compare one person's efforts to those of a subsidiary of a multi-billion dollar corporation with ~200 employees?

    Firaxis chooses not to improve the AI, because they don't think it's important. Not because they can't afford it. They probably spent more money on the opening cinematic than they did on AI improvements.
     
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  5. FearSunn

    FearSunn Warlord

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    @Cagarustus such posts as yours just kill any incentive for a modder to do things for a community with such dumb approaches.
     
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  6. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    I still finish games even though I know I will win.
     
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  7. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    So some of us feel called for endlessly repeat the demands of AI improvements. Others feel that those repetitions here are going on the nerves of the wrong people. :grouphug:

    That is not defending Firaxis' position - they should do more for the AI aspect. But: some (poor souls) of them have to read here (& even worse places) and report, but these are not making the decisions. And those, who are making the decisions, will never be hit by the infinite nerve-racking repetitions.
    For example, you could totally flood the live-streams with AI questions, but all the effect would be to make the job of Sarah more miserable. And less (or no) answers involving gameplay etc.
    With respect to AI improvements I'm going with Erich Kästner: "Es gibt nichts Gutes, außer: Man tut es" / "There is nothing good: unless someone does it."

    Short: 'Vinyl record with crack / hanging record' not wrong, but ineffective.

    PS. Since civ3 I thought, some day or other I'll become immune to such discussions ... :p then: hope dies last.
     
  8. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    First if all, I rather doubt that the people who make such decisions are reading these forums, but in the unlikely event that they are, I wouldn't mind at all if they get a snootful. People always complain about the AI in strategy games, no matter how good or bad it is, but the current AI in Civ VI R&F is embarrassingly bad, even for Civilization. It's worse than the AI in Civ V, which was infamously bad. If I were a coder for Firaxis, I would be ashamed.

    AI is rarely a priority for developers, because the vast majority of players (especially in a mainstream title like Civilization) never play the game on a harder mode than "easy". So it's important to let them know that it's not okay when the AI can't even use some basic systems in the game. How are they going to know that AI is important to us if we just nod and smile and never point out that there is a problem?

    As a game developer myself, I know that making competent AI is hard... but it's not that hard. Some of the most pernicious deficiencies in the Civ VI AI (such as pathing problems, or the inability to air units even when they're built) seem more like bugs than actual weakness in the AI design. Which brings us to the other elephant in the room: the many obvious unfixed bugs in the game. Which is something else Firaxis should be ashamed of. Since they obviously don't think these things are important enough to fix, they're obviously not going to fix them unless people complain about them (although probably not even then).

    And if users complaining about bugs and glitches angers you as a developer to the point where you would deliberately not fix them just to spite the complainers, then frankly you're in the wrong business.
     
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  9. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    What has my ability to program AI to do with the fact that FXS did not deliver even the most basic AI for civ 6, that is, one that is at least capable of using ALL the game systems (air force, navy, wonders in right city, cities in fresh water, etcetcetc)??? Yours is one of the most obtuse answers and positions I have seen in a long time...

    Yes, I could do it, or try hard... will I do it? No. My time is valuable, and those skills make my living. On the other hand, we all paid a nice amount of money for a product that is not yet complete (and the AI is only one of the lacking systems, UI is another big story, and diplo, and on). They have to fix it, not me. Or be honest and sell it only as a MP game, which it basically is as of now.

    I suggest you think your answers a little longer before posting them.
     
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  10. Cagarustus

    Cagarustus Prince

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    To be honest with you, I really like the game and when someone comes along and starts rubbishing it I get triggered.

    The truth hurts.
     
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  11. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    To put it into perspective, it took one a small team the better half of a decade to bring Civ5's original AI to a good enough place to be considered challenging (Vox Populi).

    AI is hard work and frankly goes unnoticed by most people til they get bored and move to something else a hundred or so hours later.

    I do think city state aggression is downright annoying, especially when you are allied to both the civ and the city state. At least they are adding some personality back in for that choice, so now if you know the civ is aggressive towards city states (like Germany) then you can take proper precautions beforehand.

    They explicitly mention Hungary's testing as being the driving force for that change, so it's worth noting that their development appears more reactive rather than proactive, which is a fair approach once you consider that more specific "per-civ" development might be a bit too much work. They stressed Maori as taking a lot of time as an example of a more unorthodox civ that required attention.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  12. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Yeah, Firaxis has figured out their marketing approach. Keep adding civs, keep layering on new systems, and teach the AI enough so that it's not obviously incompetent to someone who plays the game casually before moving on to a new game.

    I just hope they provide sufficient support to modders that they're motivated to spend a half decade tweaking Civ 6 to be more fun for those who prefer a tougher challenge. But if not, there's always the work being done on Civ 5 to fall back on for people looking for that experience.
     
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  13. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    We like the game too. We wouldn't care about the game's problems if we didn't like it.
     
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  14. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    I'm pretty optimistic about that, as even Firaxis mentioned that often their features are designed with custom content in mind and in my experience the most prolific modding happens after a game is feature complete so that won't be for a while I imagine, especially if the rumors of a third expansion are true.

    I expect a good 50/100 hours of a fun experience to justify a video game's price tag. Mods are more than capable of enhancing the base experience for me afterwards if I want to stretch that purchase. I think that's more than fair for both developer and consumer.
     
  15. BackseatTyrant

    BackseatTyrant Queer Anarchotranshumanist

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    Do you think the AI issues might be due to feature bloat?
     
  16. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    It doesn't seem like it, since most of the issues have existed since the initial release. But without knowing the code or the developers, it's hard to know what the problem might be. Sometimes the early design of a module can make it really hard to make some later features work, even when they may seem trivial.

    I think part of the reason why some of the features may seem "bleh" in design and execution (like the VI version of great works) is that they spread themselves a bit thin in trying to include so many features in the initial release, but I'm not sure that's the problem with the AI.

    Sometimes a particular feature becomes the sole domain of a single programmer, who may have really obtuse and poorly documented code that nobody else can read, and sometimes it can be hard to get him to fix a problem (especially if he has been reassigned to a different project, or left the company entirely). Some of the vanilla bugs had this kind of feel to them -- like the bug in the production menu where it would sometimes show the wrong "just completed" item, which took them like two or three patches to finally fix. That kind of thing smacks of working on someone else's code that you don't really know very well (and which probably wasn't very well-written to begin with).

    Sometimes when a feature is "good enough" for the higher-ups, they may tell you not to work on it anymore. But for myself, if I knew there were bugs in my code, I would feel compelled to fix them, even if I had to do it on my own time.
     
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  17. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    It's spelled "three eras ago" not "three era's ago".
     
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  18. FearSunn

    FearSunn Warlord

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    and Yield not Yeild
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    a bit... but the chop it still primarily that... every overflow had a price so was not as large as the figure itself. Still yes, it will slow, i think it was the right solution to limit real exploit but chop is in the design and is a choice that was historical.

    Our family played Black Lady... often known now with other less refined words but a nasty back stabbing card game. Taught me lots more than monopoly every did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  20. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    I know nothing about the internal working conditions, so want not comment on these. I think there was / is extreme timely pressure in the mentioned areas (your long yesterday post here), bugfixing of vanilla collided with development of R&F (->omissions). Now GS will hopefully gather it all. Nearly all. :thumbsup:

    I want (& always wanted) the complete tea set. So don't take serious the dripping problems of the can or craggy cups, let alone color issues of the saucers ... during development! Which still is going on for quite a while. (until final patch after release of Schrödinger)

    For a happy end we need (at least) finally the DLL sources ... a thick plank to bore, as Soren mentioned. Somebody must / hopefully will rescue us modders.
     
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