another hof spacerace start

@ tmit:

thans for the clarifications, didnt know that

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some additional thoughs on my game and general goals from here:

after looking in the hof, i figured that the fastest space-race on small immortal i guess we can beat, which is

PaulisKhan 1498 AD. that would be 37 turns for teching and 2 turns for building the ship, making it an average of 3313 beakers/turn from now on with a finish date of 1490 AD

the fastest space-race on small deity is harder to beat, because it´s a game from

tachywaxon 1386 AD. that would be 26 turns for teching and again 2 turns for the ship, making an averaga of 4714 beakers/turn from now on with a finish date of 1380 AD

-> i dont know if it is possible to beat 1386 AD (competing with normal speed against marathon also), but hey, why not try:). goal is set, let the games begin (again).

maybe even wastin, doshin and gkey feel motivated to post about and continue their games?

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and no, i havent forgotten about the missing update. before i continue playing, i will write and post the update;)
 
Wished I had my former life; I would be playing too. Now, I just can play 15 mins here and there and all I do is throwing units here and there without patterns lol.

That game wasn't marathon ( I don't have patience for it), that was epic.
Furthermore, as far as I recall, inca nation, thus not comparable with Qin.
 
If Snaaty did the double gems + 2 riverside corn mapfinder spam with ideally picked leaders and Inca cheesed the results would probably be pretty scary :D. Heck, the playthroughs with China are impressive here. So much micro detail!

The only way I can win on deity is abuse; either culture win in nice diplo situations or lately I've been practicing some medieval beatdowns (saved a game last night on deity school game II where I have 1st vassal with treb/mace/phant and am declaring on the 2nd AI before he gets replaceable parts).

Having multiple vassals or even just 1 tech-strong one opens up some...abuses. Screw rifles or cannons, it's time for TREBUCHETS :lol:.
 
The only way I can win on deity is abuse; either culture win in nice diplo situations or lately I've been practicing some medieval beatdowns (saved a game last night on deity school game II where I have 1st vassal with treb/mace/phant and am declaring on the 2nd AI before he gets replaceable parts).

Having multiple vassals or even just 1 tech-strong one opens up some...abuses. Screw rifles or cannons, it's time for TREBUCHETS :lol:.

I've seen some of your 100+ rifle/cannon stacks in Immortal games. That definitely works on Deity, and if you are able to crush some AI with that before they run away in tech, you can trade your way to Arty + Infantry with them.
 
I've seen some of your 100+ rifle/cannon stacks in Immortal games. That definitely works on Deity, and if you are able to crush some AI with that before they run away in tech, you can trade your way to Arty + Infantry with them.

You don't really get 100+ rifle/cannons until you start taking more cities, since it's harder to get enough #cities early on deity. If I could actually get rifling + cannons I'd win easily since I'd just farm heroic epic up to spamming CR III cannons, use AI vassal territory to sponge enemy stacks, and mow down the majority of defenders easily until VERY deep in the tech tree.

I find this often takes too long if you micro poorly (or more accurately, get impatient and speed through games w/o micro). On the other hand, you can just grow super huge cities + hammer out medieval crap + abuse trading philo/education for machinery/engineering/guilds and wind up with a good 40-60 turns before some of the more prime targets get their own rifles. That's 1-2 vassals potentially. Popular theory here is that you need a tech lead but in all honesty the AI will happily throw its stacks away in medieval and is as vulnerable to :backstab: as ever.

On immortal I can win with that outright (example: IU 98 toku), but on deity you're probably going to have to stop at some point and consolidate better tech...the issue is doing it in time before culture/space.

None of that is particularly relevant to Snaaty's situation though.
 
Marathon is hard to compare, but I was also thinking about our SG16 game a few months ago. It was normal speed, and we needed to research to Future Tech 1 (even tho it was not a space race).

When we spread sushi (and we were a bit lazy about the spread), we were all a bit surprised when research jumped to 6000-7000+ beakers. We knocked out the last ~dozen techs at 1/turn. If you're finding it hard to justify spreading sushi so late, that might be another indication that it should be spread first (before mining). Sushi needs time to grow the city, but mining pays off instantly. Sushi also allows you to build factory/coal plants with food (whip) instead of hammers that could be put towards wealth/research.

It may not sound like it, but in my mind, the jury is still out on which corp to spread first. I'm giving arguments for Sushi, but I'm looking for pro-mining thoughts.
 
Sushi first makes more sense to me, assuming the right map and not having 2987409857098 mining resources of course.

But he's committed to the opposite at this point, so the value of spreading it might be different than if one had already planned for sushi from the start.
 
a lot of interesting points are brought up, towards the discussion mining vs sushi.

i also hope to see other games with sushi first played out on this map to really compare.

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what i´m dubious about is the point of return, because my thinking was along the following lines:

a city needs a courthouse, a gran and at least a lib. with sushi this are 2 turns for each building and 4, 2 + 3 pop whips, so we are talking about 9 pop you need to sacrifice in any new city before the city becomes somewhat usefull, so we are talking about 9 turns, and only then you can start to build up pop and you are still in the red for another few turns (untill the beakers overtake the costs, maybe 4 more turns)

with mining, you need courthouse, forge, factory + coalpl. which then immediately give you a full return once the buildings are up (doesnt matter if the city still is at size 1:D). it took 3 turns for courthouse, 2 forge, 4 factory, 3 coalpl. in my game so we are talking about 12 turns here.

thats roughly the same time as for sushi to start running in the green, but instead of starting with a small +10 in beakers (that go up each turn off course) you immediately start with +80 beakers/gold.

-> that mainly allowed me to keep research at 100% during the spreading phase. maybe sushi will take over later, but the immediate benefit from mining first is huge if you look at a 40 city empire, because it´s 70 each city for the first turn (70*40=2800, then 60*40 next turn, untill suhi takes the lead after 7 turns). so the interesting thing now it to find out IF sushi first manages to take over the mining first advantage from mid-game in late game thanks to far superiour beakers-output

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i´m not saying mining first is better, dont get me wrong, i just want to share my thinking...
 
Does the comparison not depend...considerably...on the quantity of each resource you can realistically attain? I could envision either being stronger potentially, while on this map I don't know since I've not followed in great detail to this point.
 
Sushi suppose to be stronger on B&S map, but here it's questionable indeed. We got only some ~30 resources here and we need to settle islands to clame all these fish/clams resources. OTOH 1pop/turn growth + Kremlin look stronger in terms of production. To get reasonable beakers return we need some 10 turns after sushi spread per city. I actually consider to spread sushi for fastest factories/CP whips and research, then mining will give immediate benefit upon spread.
 
Don't forget about early The Kremlin for a -33% cost = +50% Hammers from whipping (note that this bonus is multiplicative like Bureaucracy, but applies to every whip in all cities rather than all Hammers generated in one's capital). This can make it really cheap to build infrastructure with a Sid's Sushi first and Mining Inc second strategy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
a city needs a courthouse, a gran and at least a lib. with sushi this are 2 turns for each building and 4, 2 + 3 pop whips, so we are talking about 9 pop you need to sacrifice in any new city

I wasn't considering you'd start with fresh cities. By the time you get to sushi, you should have conquered up close to the domination limit (within 10%). Those cities should all have basic infrastructure.
 
ok, to answer better the remaining questions WHY i choose mining over suhi in my try, i will pack the rest into the remaining update to 1000 AD. it therefore will come in various parts and will be a bit long i guess, but more details, more good, no?

i will pack it in spoiler tags, just because (maybe some more playthroughs will come in later, hopefully):

Spoiler :

since i was able to get sushi/mining very early, i had to consider when to obsolete my religous combo (uos/spiral/apo). loosing the monastries in most of my cities (around 30 at that point) would be around 100 gold and close to 200 beakers. considering that the 100 gold at that point would be 20% research rate and each 10% research rate were around 250 beakers, we are talking about a net loss of 700 beakers.

another very important point was the exec-production. that early in the game, i didnt see any realistic way to get around 35 execs. out in a timely manner, nor to get the wallstreet up in time. so i did some calcs and came to the conclusion that libbing steampower and getting levees up in my core-river cities and the soontobe headquarter of the corps would not only allow me to get enough cities for 1 turn exec spamming but also for finishing the wallstreet in time.

the third point was the dire money situation i was facing. around 600 AD, i cashed in around 1000 gold from the NE, followed by close to 1500 gold around 800 AD from the moais. still, the turns from 800 AD to 900 AD were really bitter, because spreading 2 corps at max. speed and STILL maintaining research at 100% became a real challange. i managed to do so, because i did use the smallish helper cities to produce wealth right after they got mining, making a surplus each turn of 30*1.25(mining)+12(HQ)-30(costs)=around 20gold.

still, at a certain point in the 900th century, i was forced to leave merk and go into FM, for the 25% saving on corps. it did cost 200 beakers, but reduced the costs by 350 gold per turn.

in parallel, i switched out of org.reli and into FR. that gained around 150 beakers, but i lost the boni from UoS and Spiral for temples and cathetrals although (didnt know that). only apo hammers remained, so i payed around 100 gold for said 150 beakers... ...well, a mistake at the given point for sure, but nothing crucial, so i played on (if it would have been crucial, i would have reloaded).

then i followed the adived given by wastin, and went for assembly line right after mining was in (after mining + astro was in actually, because i already had played 2 turns more before getting said advice). with my small helper cities building wealth, my super-levee-cities spamming execs and settlers i put all the other cities to get factories and coalplants up, to increase the bonus from hammers for future wealt/research building.

that allowed me to keep research up as fast as possible and to get sushi only a few turns after mining was in (11 turns to be precise, with the detours of astro and assembly line included already)

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here you see my corps HQ delhi the turn mining was in:
11-mining-640ad.JPG

102 hammers without ov and the wallstreet just finished. plan was working very well so far. the other exec cities were setup also in time, so i managed to build not only all execs in 1 turn, i also managed to spread the corps in most cases the same turn said exec finished due to the rr network getting up fast.

and to answer the question wastin posted:

i indeed had a lot of new cities founded up to 1000 AD (some 15-20 i guess), because part of my overal strategy was to use ics (infinit city spam) which basically means to settle as many cities as possible without caring of resources and city placement (just get as many as possible):

some unimportant new helper city founded in 720 AD:
11-helper-720ad.JPG
already in the green, right after founding it with 20 research and 10 costs


another unimportant new helper city in 1000 AD:
11-helper-1000ad.JPG
in 4 turns all needed infra will be up and with both corps, the city costs 30 gold more then it brings in so far. with factory+cplant + a bit more pop, it will soon produce around 100 beakers/gold per turn, turning into a gain per turn of 70 gold/beakers without counting the extra research any suhi-scientist will bring.

i stopped settling at 1000 AD, because with each turn passing, rentability drops, but up to 1000 AD, i spammed settlers and cities wherever i could:)

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in the next post i will explain a bit my thinking about how many turns later i would have reached sushi and mining if i would have gone the other way around and how many turns i calculated i would loose by not beeing able to produce and move my execs in 1 turn to the destination
 
2nd part of the 1000 AD update:

Spoiler :

going for sushi before mining would have ment obsoleting monastries (200 beakers, 100 gold, ingnoring the hammers) earlier, which as described above would have resulted in 20% less researchrate and therefore in total around 700 beakers.

assuming now we take from lib bio instead of steamp. the beakers to reach sushi or mining are roughly th same (scimeth+med = rep.parts+steel+rr) if you apply the 10% discount for prerequesites and substract the 700 beakers you loose after scimeth is done, so sushi should be researched around the tame time as mining (maybe even a turn earlier, if you have the money in the bank to keep research at 100% despite the money from monastries missing.

so we are talking about sushi at 640 AD.

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after going mining first, i reached sushi in 860 AD, which is 11 turns later. seems a lot...

11-sushi-860ad.JPG

but again, thanks to levees and railroads we have all execs done and in place in 1 turn in all mainland cities (so in almost all cities that will get corps). this really helps.

now looking at suhi first, an important point for going for mining was the faster exec production and shipping:

sure, you can ov produce and whip execs, but it surely wont work for 40 of them, so i used for precalculating the spreading time a simple formula for sushi first (was to lazy to test):

20 execs i get out in 1 turn, 20 execs need 2 turns (assuming i need 40). and since you are limited on 4 of them on small mapsize, you only can start a new one once the previous one is used up, so the last of the 2 turn execs will be 20 turns later compared to the 1 turn execs.

so in total, we have the first exec 11 turns faster then mining first, but the last one will finish 9 turns later then in the mining first approach due to the 20 turns delay (20-11). which makes it alread a not so good tradeoff looking at the total growth and expansion rates. and doing all this without railroads and really a very limited number of cities that can get an exec out in 1 turn (none to be precise without leeve or IW), so you need to make a huge efford of planning and ov juggling to really get out 20 execs in 1 turn AND to move them to their destination less then 6 turns away the SAME turn...

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now looking at the total research of your empire during the spreading phase even moved the advantage more to mining first:

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going sushi first, means monastries obsolete around 30000 beakers earlier in the techtree (including astro and assembly line in the calculation + substracting the prereq bonus, because i teched them both before scimeth)

that means we are missing the above described 700 beakers/turn during this phase. the lack of gold means research will drop even more because you simply cant afford to sacrifice gold for beakers like i did (merk instead of FM was 150 beakers for close to 300 gold / turns in the end). also you will get your prod. techs later and therefore you need to run org.reli longer which are another 150 beakers / turn.

adding this all up already sums to 1000 beakers / turn you would have less during the expansion period of your first corp, assuming you are able to maintain teching at 80% (only substracting the 20% from the monastries). in reality, i would guess teching somewhere around 60-70% would be more realistic, so we are talking more of 1500 beakers / turn less.

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it took me 11 turns to get from mining to sushi (including the detours for astro + assembly line) with research around 2500 beakers / turn all the time.

having between 1000-1500 beakers less when beginning to spread sushi leaves you with only around 1000-1500 beakers for teching...

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so my thinking was that with mining first not only would i be able to spread any corps faster, i also would get the second one (sushi) faster and in midgame, say some 20 turns i would be able to gain between 1000 -1500 beakers each turn.

maybe sushi will be able to overtake that in lategame, but we will see...

last but not least, an ov over the core of our empire in 1000 AD:

11-ov-centre-1000ad.JPG

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the last update and the 1000 AD save i will try to post tonight or tomorrow night:). i hope i dont bother you with boring updates and walls of text, if so, just let me know, and i will keep it shorter (would save time for me also:D)

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with all i write here, you always have to consider that i have very limited experience with corps and am only expressing my opinion and my thinking and reasoning behind what i did. i dont claim it to be correct not the "best/only" way to go. in fact, i would be happy to hear see that sushi would be able to compete or even be superior, because learning something you didnt know/see is great




 
I suspect one can get Sid's Sushi much earlier via great scientist bulbing.

Also the great advantage of getting Biology from Liberalism is a very early National Park with up to 20 free specialists. Could use a great engineer to build it in 1t.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I suspect one can get Sid's Sushi much earlier via great scientist bulbing.

Also the great advantage of getting Biology from Liberalism is a very early National Park with up to 20 free specialists. Could use a great engineer to build it in 1t.

Sun Tzu Wu

@ sun tzu wu:

you might be right here, but you have to keep in mind 2 quite special facts for this special game (on any standard game and map i fully agree with you):

1. you NEED a GE for mining, so your second GP needs to be one for 100% ge-points or it will come to late (assuming your first GP is a GS and gets the academy up in capital). that might make planning for enough GS even more complicated.

2. i was able to maintain research at 100% from 1 AD on and research was close to 1000 beakers only shortly after 1 AD, around 1500 beakers around 500 AD and stabilizing around 2500 beakers from 700 AD on. i dont remember exactly how many beakers a GS brings (maybe around 1500?) but your bulbing needs to be really early to give a big advantage due to massive research power.

i used GM´s for trading missons instead (3 in total), because they were bringing in 1200-1300 gold each, and costs at 100% research were somewhere around 250-300 gold before corps really kicked in, so each GM was fuelling some 5 turns research at 100% while break even would have been around 60% research rate.

my thinking was along the following line: 5 turns research at 100% instead of 60% will result in 400-1000 beakers more each turn, depending on when the mission was launched (near 1 ad around 400 beakers, from 700 ad on 1000 beakers a turn) so i estimated the overal return of GMs higher then GS

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still, i think a few turns could be gained, maybe even sushi around 500 AD could be done (i havent tried, only guessing) so what you describe might really have huge impact if done corretly.

-> maybe someone can/will try that. lets see what wastin/dosin and gkey will show, since they all went sushi first if i´m not mistaken (if they still plan on finishing this game, that is)

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updating spoiler in post above right now;)
 
ok, here comes the last update for 1000 AD and the save. now you can tear the save and my ideas apart:)

Spoiler :

ok, for the last update, a bit of insight into mm of some important cities (namely capital and iw city) and some general economical infos:

a shot of the capital in 1000 AD:

11-capital-1000ad.JPG

700 beakers and rapidly growing, 3 pop every 4 turns, translating into another 18 beakers per pop via a scientists. thanks to bureau, it brings 230 gold while building wealth. a lot of turns, the captial and the iw city managed to keep my empire afloat alone, but right now the iw city has some wonders to build:

11-iwcity-1000ad.JPG

broadway (2 turns), rocknroll (3 turns), eiffelt (2 turns). the eiffelt i will use again to cash in because it´s construction is multiplied with a ressource. the last wonder i cashed in were the moais, and after factories and coalplants i stopped a bit cashing in for wonders, because with the additional production multipliers the additional benefits of wonder cash start to decrease and when building any wonder you dont need only for cash you always have to substract the wonder hammers from the benefit, decreasing it even more.

happy cap is becomming an issue soon, but with some more wonders we should be all right a few turns more and some ware are about to end also...

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demo screen:

11-demo-1000ad.JPG

looking good i guess, but since i´m missing any benchmarks here... ...no idea really.

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and the info screen, with the most buildings, units and improvements selected:

11-info-1000ad.JPG

factories and coalplants are becoming really popular these days in china:)

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plan for research:

finish radio, then industrialism, combustion, plastics, computers, superconductors (research labs), then rifling, artillery, rocketry for apollo

or maybe towards apollo first, then towards research labs?

-> any tips or better ideas would be highly apreciated, because i basically follow here the plan wastin outlined a few posts ago...

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save attached

 

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Look for what buildings are worth investing hammers.
Library, Observatory are almost always worth it. University not always but most of the time. Same for Sushi.
Windmills tend to yield slightly more research than mines.

Don't have much time, sorry :)
 
Beautiful save Snaat!

No need for Kremlin (Why Communism then?) with Mining first (and no need to spread corps to small cities? Questionable part - leave 7 pops junks or spread sushi and wait for ROI). Wish I could proceed with the game to compare Sushi vs Mining holywar :D. Anyway your save seem to be very hard to beat. In this light even SP approach could be worth to check.:goodjob:

Is this the 4th GA?
 
Beautiful save Snaat!

No need for Kremlin (Why Communism then?) with Mining first (and no need to spread corps to small cities? Questionable part - leave 7 pops junks or spread sushi and wait for ROI). Wish I could proceed with the game to compare Sushi vs Mining holywar :D. Anyway your save seem to be very hard to beat. In this light even SP approach could be worth to check.:goodjob:

Is this the 4th GA?

you are right, 4th GA.

why communism... ...well, bad planning. i messed up with gp planning for ga´s and ended up 1 gp short for the 4th ga to chain it. that´s why i went for the gspy after electricity.

but it was a really bad move now you name it, because it did cost 2 turns and with 2-3 turns of extreme-gp running in some big city i would have reached the gp almost at the same time and would have saved 2 turns towards the spaceship already:rolleyes:

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edith adds:

i would really love to replay this game, eliminating all the mistakes i made (or things i didnt know, like how much faster ha warfare is, the power of wonder failgold right from the start and, and, and)... ...but i simply dont have the time to do so.

same goes for the points gkey pointed out, because after thinking a bit about it, state property might indeed have been a valid option, putting all these hammers into science instead of gold to spread and maintain corps... ...easily 20.000 i guess and with research around 5000-6000 beakers with most grown cities set on reseach, beeing able to stay in merk, maybe really faster

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but like it stands, we are left on guessing, what would or would not have been possible... ...right now, i would say some 10-15 turns faster overall when playing the perfect game and going for mining first like i did (wastin´s start, earlier access to stone/marble, conquering dari not mansa for lategame trading, no stupid teching mistakes like communism...)

for all other options (state property, sushi first)... ...no idea what really would be possible or not
 
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