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Another MP game??

Discussion in 'Multiplayer and LP's' started by Koshling, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    And I've been trying since April 2014 to tell you about it! But I could not get you to see from my explanation of it. Your reply has always been I didn't build it. And it's a simple Global Define that just needs it's setting changed to boot! :mad::mad::mad:

    I think it's more that you've now come up to a better defended City with recent City defense upgrades and your Monster got a fang pulled! Too Bad!

    Guess you won't be Bombarding then will you! Just plain ol' Mil units attacking, you got tons of Sword now use them!
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    So you admit it's a bug that a city can obtain a Bombard Defense value that makes it impossible to reduce its City Defense value. And you've changed it in the globals yourself on the current assets in observation that it was never intended for Bombard Defense to be possible to seal off all potential for reducing city defense levels. But you would not concede that the game, for it to be a fair game at all, be adjusted during play to account for this bug?

    You never understood the difference between Bombard Defense and City Defense enough to explain what you were trying to say. There's no amount of City Defense that's 'too high' so as to make a city impossible to attack. But 100% or over reduces all damage you can deal to city defenses. This makes the city impossible to attack at all. Ever. I'm not asking for it to be 'easier'. I'm asking for the window to be cracked so it can be made possible.

    THIS is because you always pointed to the wrong problem.
     
  3. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Don't try to twist this T-brd, Not a bug, just a GlobalDefine that was set too high and I did not find it Until I became a Modder for C2C! And I adjusted it back during our Siege War arguments. When you got upset that I reduced Ram line str and brought axe and spear back to normal str levels that upset the "chart".
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    When the game will not allow a city to be attacked at all, that is a bug. Does not matter what the source of that bug is, which in this case is that the global define allows a complete seal-off of any ability to damage city defense.

    I didn't set it to 100% (unless I did so really stupidly long before I understood the system.) But that's not the point. The point is you recognize that it means you can't damage city defenses and thus that it means you cannot attack the city at all. And you also recognize this is not how the game is supposed to be. I don't care if it's reduced to 95% max. I'm just demanding it be lower than 100% so that SOME damage CAN be done to the defenses so that SOME units CAN attack!

    The only other way is a spy. I can do that too. I don't use this strategy because I believe it unfair. To reduce the defenses to nothing in one shot without any contest is too potent, imo.

    I may find I CAN damage the city defenses with rams still, in which case I may feel this actually makes things more interesting but we'll see... I THINK I reduced even their damage by bombard defense as well.
     
  5. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Turn taken. Joseph is up...
     
  6. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    @TB and Joe: Sorry to intervene here, but if Joe had explained better what he was experiencing that time he was complaining on impossible to attack cities, someone would have told him that he could fix it by just adjusting the Max Bombard Defense value in the BUG option from 100% to like 80%.
    @.Joe: I'm sorry that I didn't realize that this was what you were experiencing back then as it could easily have been fixed for you by changing your personal user settings.
     
  7. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    So, what is the implication for the current game? We can't have a situation where it's possible to create totally invulnerable cities!
     
  8. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Rf next!

    @Toffer,
    There are 2 places with this modifier if I understand it correctly, now that I've been on the team as a modder and had a chance to test and play. In A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines there is this section which I lowered last year to 70 from 100 that Afforess the author of this define set it at.
    Now for many years this define has been at 100 and we had No Problem. And as you have brought to memory there is also one in BUG Option screen. So we have 2 sets for this setting. I now play my personal games with the BUG on 65, have been since the Siege War debates.

    So where really is this "bug". Both these settings worked as designed up until a few years ago. What changed them?

    But that Still does not answer the question of why T-brd could so easily bombard my 1st 3 cities he attacked that had 135 to 165% City defense, But Now he tries to attack a City with 235% City defense and is complaining. There is a huge incongruity here. Can easily take city defenses under 200% but now can't bombard Cities over 200%? Maybe his own Promotion system bit him in the *ss this time.

    @Koshling, no we can't have invulnerable city defenses, but Is this Really the case here? I say it's not. Otherwise my other 3 cities would still be mine.

    And I bet everyone of us have a different value for that BUG Max Bombard setting as there were many settings left undecided at game start. So which one gets changed the Afforess one or the BUG one? Which one is the "right" one?

    JosEPh
     
  9. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Again Rf it is Your turn! Do it!

    JosEPh
     
  10. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Maybe I am misunderstanding, but why does bombard defense have a qualatively different impact on cities with 150 defense vs cities with 250? Surely the bombard defense just affects the RATE at which defense is lowered by any particular amount of bombardment ?
     
  11. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    The one in A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines is only the default value for the BUG option if no value is saved for it in user settings, it was no problem for many even before you lowered it as those many probably had reduced it in BUG option.

    If a city reach the max bombard defense of 100% it becomes impossible to reduce the city defense at all no matter how high or low the city defense is.
    If bombard city defense is 50% in a city, every "bombard" that would normally damage 10% will now damage only 5%. The first case from 150→145%, or in the other case from 250→245%
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Good question koshling. Very good question.

    If you think this is bad in late v36 I have had games where in late ancient and early classical cities had 450% city defense. I complained about them too. Even posted screenshots. But was told my late Ancient army should Never be able to attack an enemy City that was in Classical era, even the early part. I nearly pulled what little hair I have right out. This argument has been going on, like I said, since April of 2014. I pulled up that thread when I had the above city defense situation. So I started digging and the result was that I lowered Afforess value and I lowered in my own BUG settings this max Bombard value. But I was told this all normal and I just wanted to play the "old vanilla CIV IV way".
     
  13. rightfuture

    rightfuture Emperor

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    Turn Done, Magnus up, checking regularly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    What baffles me here is that you STILL, after all that has been said by so many in this thread, don't get it.

    City defense is a DIFFERENT VALUE TO BOMBARD DEFENSE!!!!!!

    Let me repeat:


    City defense is a DIFFERENT VALUE TO BOMBARD DEFENSE!!!!!! They are two different numbers entirely. Bombard Defense in a city does not show up on the map view at all. It ONLY (and this is IF this is updated to the point that I included it) shows up under the city defense help hover panel inside the city screen (which I cannot see to confirm is 100% or higher for your city for sure.)

    City defense can be 500000% for all I care but when Bombard Defense gets up to 100%, NO AMOUNT OF CITY DEFENSE CAN BE REDUCED AT ALL!

    So it is completely irrelevant that your previous cities had this or that defense amounts because the BOMBARD defense had not been pushed to 100% or more, therefore a city bombardment action from a siege weapon would work.

    I could tell that your Bombard Defense was a bit higher in the last city I captured, as it took me a lot more catapults (or whatever they're called at this stage) to reduce your defenses down to minimum, which was fine. But when you get a city that has any defense value, could be 100, 200, 300% I don't care which or where it is, when it cannot be reduced AT ALL because the Bombard Defense is up to 100%, then you aren't just getting a POOR odds of success, you are getting no chance to even attack as you MUST reduce the city defenses to a level that allows attack to take place!

    Again, this is not about getting bad odds. I'm not whining that it's tough. I'm saying it should not be literally IMPOSSIBLE to attack at all since I could have a billion catapults, hell, a billion Modern Siege, and none of them can bring down the defense AT ALL because we have a bad setting in the globals!

    Is it sinking in here what the problem is?

    EDIT:
    This situation you were bringing forth had nothing to do with Bombard Defense making it impossible to reduce the City Defense. THAT one was a different scenario where you were trying to attack longbowmen and pikemen with axeman units and expecting it to be effective. You were at least ABLE to attack that city so you weren't experiencing this issue (you had already reduced the city to minimum defense in that case too so you had been able to damage the city defenses with your bombardment actions so the bombard defense, by that scenario, had already been proven to not be 100% or more.)

    That's exactly what I'm saying we have. Even a reduction of that one variable I mentioned to 95 rather than 100, then a recalc, which only one of us needs to run, could remove this absolution of invulnerability. Again... I'm not asking for things to be 'easier'. Just not 'impossible'.

    IIRC, Whisperr's turn held the controls over changing BUG settings that aren't just local to a given player. Pretty sure this one would've been setup this way. I don't know if Hydro has thus inherrited the ability to change these but I'd bet if you look at your own BUG options, you can't change this value yourself because it's a gamewide variable. Nor can I. We could do it from the Global xml as noted.

    EDIT: No... wait... that was the other game. I think it's Koshling that can set the BUG options in this one.

    You asked what changed to make it suddenly a problem that 100 was set in that global. First of all, it was a problem during the Afforess A New Dawn inheritance too but only during late castles when you had the tunnels that could let troops ignore the city defense amounts if discovered. After Castles were obsoleted, you could never again achieve 100% Bombard Defense throughout the rest of the game.

    Furthermore, the problem became more severe when Hydro and another modder (can't recall his name off the top of my head) and I were working on the Realistic Siege project. I didn't realize they had set Bombard Defense values to be so easily ammassed to 100% and up and I'm pretty sure they didn't realize the danger in doing so either. If we were to review the XML on defensive buildings and ensure it was never possible to get 100% or more then we wouldn't NEED to fix it with a global limit. Obviously that's not a good idea for this game but it would certainly be a good thing to review in the core mod (which I did say to you in a PM recently.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  15. MagnusIlluminus

    MagnusIlluminus Emperor

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    With all of the exposition and explanation that has happened over the last lots of posts, I see that I did not have a clear idea of what was being discussed when I last posted. With this new information in my head, I do agree that BOMBARD Defense should never be allowed to reach 100%. Thus it should be reduced. Probably not by much, but some.

    I'll be doing my turn in a moment, just wanted to say that.
     
  16. MagnusIlluminus

    MagnusIlluminus Emperor

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    Turn done, Thunderbrd is up.
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Ok. Looks like the city does NOT have 100% Bombard Defense so the discussion can go on without needing immediate resolution.

    Repelled for this round at least. That's a LOT of units in there! Enjoying the challenge!

    You're up Hydro!
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    A disclaimer, I am very rusty compared to the old days when I was actively modding. So I am a bit embarrssed to ask this question but I think it should be brought up.

    What buildings, wonders and/or promotions influence "Bombard Defense"?
     
  19. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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  20. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Let me know what to check in my BUG options (which screen etc) if you think I am the BUG-master for this game! A cap somewhere around 90% (which would mean a 90% reduction in the amount of defense REDUCTION any given bombardment does, regardless of the LEVEL of city defense at the time) seems about right to me, though it sounds like we are not hitting that yet anyway.

    Turn taken, and Joseph is up...
     

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