Another Time question

[Bozo Erectus]

You know how we all naturally assume that Time moves forward inexorably and carries the universe along with it into the 'future'?

How about this instead: Time doesnt 'move', either forward or backwards or in any way. We're the ones that are 'moving'. Picture a bowlingball rolling on the floor. At any given moment, only a tiny fraction of its surface is in contact with the floor. That tiny fraction of contact would be our 'Present', or Now. So in other words, as our universe rolls along on Time, and our tiny fraction of contact with it grants us our 'Nowness', it may appear to us subjectively that Time is whats moving, but whats actually moving is us, or Space.

You think Im onto soimething, or that Im on something?

 

[MrCynical]

By that analogy, wouldn't it appear that time was circular in nature? Eventually the bowling ball would make a complete revolution and you'd be back at the same present you had earlier?

 

[Raisin Bran]

Time does not move ... time is a human invention to quantify his actions on a given period. It does not move nor is it stationnary

Taken your bowling ball example for the "present" you can't do this with real time because the "present" dosen't exists because the present is the reunion of the past and the future and not an actual timeframe. The "present" cannot be pinpointed because by the time you pinpoint it its already in the past and if you try to pinpoint before it comes in its future.

I say we move forward and time is immuable. Since its concept based on human principles it cannot be more than that !

 

[Bozo Erectus]

By that analogy, wouldn't it appear that time was circular in nature? Eventually the bowling ball would make a complete revolution and you'd be back at the same present you had earlier?

No, picture time as a medium, like water lets say. Fill a petri dish with a thin film of water. Roll a ballbearing across it. You'll see that at any given 'moment', a very small portion of the ballbearing is making contact with the water. The point of contact between Space and Time is what we experience as the Present Moment. Time isnt going anywhere, or becoming anything else. Space is what moves across the surface of Time, like a ship on the ocean.

In other words, theres no Past or Future, only a Now which Space moves across. You grok?

 

[warpus]

I think that you're right.

Time is a dimension and we are moving through it - much like we move through space. It isn't the time or space that's moving - it is us moving through space and time.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

MrCynical, I just realized I didnt directly anser your question, so I'll try again.

Well, there IS a certain rhythm to things isnt there? Theres day and night, the coming and going of the seasons, even some theories that the universe itself continually expands and contracts, like a flower. That could be seen as evidence of this 'circularity', couldnt it?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I think that you're right.

Time is a dimension and we are moving through it - much like we move through space. It isn't the time or space that's moving - it is us moving through space and time.

Its about Time we agreed! [/awful pun]. We move within Space, as Space moves across Time. The Present Moment we experience is a like a toe dipped in Time as the boat sails along.

 

[warpus]

Well, I dont' think that space moves through time. It is rather the objects in space that move through time.

 

[Mise]

That's an interesting analogy! Unfortunately, there are millions of ways of thinking about it. After the last thread, I've pretty much given up thinking about this kind of thing, so it's great when other people do the thinking for me

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, I dont' think that space moves through time. It is rather the objects in space that move through time.

In relation to Time, shouldnt all the 'objects' contained within Space, for all intents and purposes, be considered to be one and the same as Space itself?

That's an interesting analogy! Unfortunately, there are millions of ways of thinking about it. After the last thread, I've pretty much given up thinking about this kind of thing, so it's great when other people do the thinking for me

My business card says: Will think for food.

 

[warpus]

In relation to Time, shouldnt all the 'objects' contained within Space, for all intents and purposes, be considered to be one and the same as Space itself?

No.. because then you should say that all objects in space-time are space-time.. and that's not true.

All objects in the universe travel through space-time.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Taken your bowling ball example for the "present" you can't do this with real time because the "present" dosen't exists because the present is the reunion of the past and the future and not an actual timeframe. The "present" cannot be pinpointed because by the time you pinpoint it its already in the past and if you try to pinpoint before it comes in its future.

If I understand you correctly, youre saying that the Past and Future have an objective existence, and that the Present is where the two meet? So Yesterday is somewhere behind me, and Tommorow is checking its watch, waiting for me to arrive? Thats not how I see it, no.

 

[El_Machinae]

You know how we all naturally assume that Time moves forward inexorably and carries the universe along with it into the 'future'?

How about this instead: Time doesnt 'move', either forward or backwards or in any way. We're the ones that are 'moving'. Picture a bowlingball rolling on the floor. At any given moment, only a tiny fraction of its surface is in contact with the floor. That tiny fraction of contact would be our 'Present', or Now. So in other words, as our universe rolls along on Time, and our tiny fraction of contact with it grants us our 'Nowness', it may appear to us subjectively that Time is whats moving, but whats actually moving is us, or Space.

You think Im onto soimething, or that Im on something?

Welcome to successful multi-dimensional thinking.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No.. because then you should say that all objects in space-time are space-time.. and that's not true.

All objects in the universe travel through space-time.

You mean that Space and Time are one thng, seperate and apart from all the matter, energy and what have you thats contained within it?

Welcome to successful multi-dimensional thinking.

You should provide aspirin to the new arrivals

 

[MRM]

You know how we all naturally assume that Time moves forward inexorably and carries the universe along with it into the 'future'?

How about this instead: Time doesnt 'move', either forward or backwards or in any way. We're the ones that are 'moving'. Picture a bowlingball rolling on the floor. At any given moment, only a tiny fraction of its surface is in contact with the floor. That tiny fraction of contact would be our 'Present', or Now. So in other words, as our universe rolls along on Time, and our tiny fraction of contact with it grants us our 'Nowness', it may appear to us subjectively that Time is whats moving, but whats actually moving is us, or Space.

You think Im onto soimething, or that Im on something?

Sounds a bit like Penrose/Hameroff idea - in his opinion time does not move but our consciousness creats the illusion of a forward moving time - at least thats how I understood this idea

TIME, CONSCIOUSNESS AND QUANTUM EVENTS
IN FUNDAMENTAL SPACETIME GEOMETRY

 

[Shaihulud]

You will still need to differentiate the different velocity that each individual "ball" is rolling, and that means you have to invent time.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I've got a different metaphor, see how you like it.

Imagine a 3-dimensional large region with its own unique natural laws. Call it Zedland. It could be a universe unto itself or it could be a unique region within our universe - start by thinking of it as a region within our universe. The region is inhabited by thinking beings who generally think of themselves as two-dimensional beings (X and Y dimensions) who all "move" in concert, at a fixed "rate", up through the third (Z) dimension. Due to the laws of their psychology, they often have firm knowledge of what lies below them (negative Z position relative to them), but they can only extrapolate and speculate about what lies above them. "I wonder what the upture holds," one says. "You should take some downstory courses, those who do not know downstory are doomed to up-peat it," another replies.

Except for some subtle fluctuations which are undetectable to these beings - but which allow Earth scientists to learn about this region - the region is completely static. When humans learn to decode their language, there is much philosophical confusion on Earth about the Zedlanders. Why are the Zedlanders so schizophrenic - the bottom part doesn't know what the top part is doing? Yet the top part does know (at least the major facts about) what the bottom part is doing? And why don't they just die of boredom in their region where nothing significant ever happens?

Along comes an Earth scientist who looks amazingly like Stephen Hawking, and explains it all. There is a natural law unique to Zedland which is very much akin to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, except that it applies through (that region of) space rather than time. Because zentropy increases in the positive Z-direction, information from lower Z locations can be reliably stored and retrieved in higher locations but not vice versa. Thus, Zedlanders can "remember" what is below but not what is above. This has enormous implications for their psychology. It even explains why they post threads on their internet called "Why is Zed special?"

 

[warpus]

You mean that Space and Time are one thng, seperate and apart from all the matter, energy and what have you thats contained within it?

Exactllly!

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Sounds a bit like Penrose/Hameroff idea - in his opinion time does not move but our consciousness creats the illusion of a forward moving time - at least thats how I understood this idea

TIME, CONSCIOUSNESS AND QUANTUM EVENTS
IN FUNDAMENTAL SPACETIME GEOMETRY

I just read the whole thing, that is some heavy sh** man Surprisingly, I actually understood most of it. Let me try to sum up it: Consciousness collapses the wave function as it rolls along the Now, creating the illusion of a Past by the seamless stringing together of infinite snapshots of the collapsing wave? By Jove I think we've got it!

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Exactllly!

So me, you and Jupiter are just objects floating in the Space Time broth? Its like a Cosmic Chunky Campbells soup? I dunno, I dont see it that way. I cant help thinking of Space and Time as being seperate. Time (the eternal Now) had to exist before Space did, IMO.

edit: Ayatollah, let me get this world straight, before I start tackling the physics problems in Zedland