Anti-espionage

[Bodzolca]

I've searched the forum for anti-espionage and didn't find a thread covering this topic. So...

What's anti-espionage. I though if you have spy or a diplomat in the city, it's much harder for an opponent to, say, steal a technology (before you ask, yes, that's what happened to me). But AI stole tech despite me having a diplomat in the city. Should I have a spy in the same city, would this make a difference?

OK, no sour grapes since I could start a war under democracy. But I would really like to clarify this so I could start with Emperor with no surprises.

 

[duke o' york]

Having a diplomat in the city increases your chances of catching an enemy spy or dip, although not by a lot. You are better off with a spy in the city to defend against tech theft, production sabotage, etc. Someone else will be able to give you the exact percentages, but a spy is better than a dip, a vet spy is better than an ordinary one and more than one in the city gives you extra chances of catching the dip.
So if you have two dips in your city and an enemy dip comes to steal tech. (All approx. figures BTW) -
Your first dip will allow you a 40% chance of catching the enemy dip, but the second won't make it 80%. With 2 dips then it means you have two separate 40% chances of catching the enemy dip - stacked dips are not cumulative. These percentages aren't correct, but I hope someone will be able to give you the right ones.
Remember that even if you do have a dip or spy in the city, this will not affect the possibility of having the entire city bribed. If the AI can afford it, you're not a Democracy and they can get a dip close enough then they will buy the city. There isn't a lot you can do about it except to have cavalry units (well, 2 move ones) in your city and send them out scouting every so often. This will allow you advanced warning of enemy dip raids, which do not come with any kind of frequency. Also remember that you can only steal a tech from a city once so if the AI stole Ceremonial Burial from Pasagardae early in the game then they will have no chance of stealing Stealth later on.

 

[Bodzolca]

Thanks for sucha quick reply. I really had to be sure about this because I heard that on emperor level AI espionage activity increases dramatically.

Oh, and thanks for a welcome. I've been a member for a long time though w/o posting. That was the main reason I can win on King with ease now.

 

[duke o' york]

Well it may have been a quick reply but it wasn't that good a reply.
If you check this link to Slowthinker's genius then it should put right all of my errors in the post above. Particularly section 11, that shows the effect of dips defending against tech theft is in fact cumulative. Oops.

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

I'm sure I read in one of the patches that vet spies give 40% cummulative chance to stop espionage attempts. However, in my OCC attempts, it didn't work. The AI was able to steal Space Flight regardless of all my diplomats/spies present.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

What do you do with a failed espionage attempt, attack the dip/spy, deport, or bribe it? I keep deporting them but they always come back, the same one over and over again!

 

[funxus]

I think the spies disappear after failed attempts, dips after all attempts. But those who are getting close to a city I usually expel. Since all my expelled spies goes to my capital, I think their spies go to the capital too, but you never know with the AI. If they get really annoying, bribing them is good if you can afford it.

 

[starlifter]

I think the spies disappear after failed attempts, dips after all attempts. But those who are getting close to a city I usually expel. Since all my expelled spies goes to my capital, I think their spies go to the capital too, but you never know with the AI.

???

Spies and dips who fail to steal a tech simply lose their movement point. You can then attack, expel, bribe, or ignore them on your next turn. If you ignore them, they will attempt to steal again. Expel them if you have to keep the peace... or bribe them if possible.

They return to the capital. If the capital is near, on on a RR, you might see the same one again and again and again, LOL....

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by starlifter


They return to the capital. If the capital is near, on on a RR, you might see the same one again and again and again, LOL....

That's what I was talking about. My poor economy just isn't big enough to bribe sometimes, like in one game where my worshipful "allies" the Celts were jealous of my knowledge. Good economy and a dip in every city is essential to survival.

 

[sethos]

The best protection against dips and spies: Let the AI steal a tech from that city in ancient times - from nown the city is proteceted against espionage.

 

[duke o' york]

No, from then on the city is protected from tech theft only. Enemy spies and dips can still perform all of the other possible missions, including subversion when a tech has been stolen from a city. But note that if the city ever changes hands then it loses the "tech theft flag" and it becomes possible to steal techs from which civ has taken over that city.

 

[starlifter]

No, from then on the city is protected from tech theft only. Enemy spies and dips can still perform all of the other possible missions, including subversion when a tech has been stolen from a city.

Plus, the spy can repeatedly steal techs from the same city. The spy does not suffer the Diplomat's limitation on stealing only one tech from a city that never cahnges hands .

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Good thing is that the AI pretty much ignores Espionage, I've never seen the AI mount a full-scale espionage war. Their loss.

 

[KingWilly]

Originally posted by Dark Ascendant
Good thing is that the AI pretty much ignores Espionage, I've never seen the AI mount a full-scale espionage war. Their loss.

I have to agree. The AI hardly ever uses spies & diplomats to subvert cities. I don't think I've seen them do it at all. They do of course steal techs. I also can't remember a spy or dip destroy any buildings.

The subverting city thing could have something to do with the fact the AI is lousy at gold production. In games I've played, I am the richest and the AI would struggle to subvert even the smallest of my cities.

 

[starlifter]

The subverting city thing could have something to do with the fact the AI is lousy at gold production. In games I've played, I am the richest and the AI would struggle to subvert even the smallest of my cities.

Rest assured, the AI will make use of revolts, if given the chance. I don't think it actually subverts, due to the way it tends to switch gov'ts when it wants to "attack". But it will simply do a revolution, break the treaty, and revolt your city, given the chance. The AI will make lots of Gold, esp. in late game and in Fundy. The AI pays no maintenence costs.... essentailly, a universal Adam Smith all the time.

 

[Titi]

Originally posted by KingWilly


I have to agree. The AI hardly ever uses spies & diplomats to subvert cities. I don't think I've seen them do it at all. They do of course steal techs. I also can't remember a spy or dip destroy any buildings.

I can tell you AI diplomats are sometimes used to buy "enemy" cities (enemy between " " because I wasn't at war when it happened to me !)
I agree their main diplomatic mission is to steal technology, but it's not the only one.

Furthermore, when there's not tech to steal, AI spies destroy city improvements (not always, but often enough in my games to mention it here).

 

[ferenginar]

originally by KingWilly

I also can't remember a spy or dip destroy any buildings.

I wish this were true, In one GOTM, I think it was number 8, I had the AI destroy my city walls in a particular city 4 times in 6 or 7 turns (Walls Rush built in beteen), and that is despite that fact that it was only using dips and I had the city defended with 2 vet spys.

It was a key pinch point city that I had taken form the AI and they were throwing all their might at regaining it. After a few more turns I managed a sortie to take the next nearest city and that was the end of the diplo war and shortly the end of the AI, but for awhile they were a real annoyance.

ferenginar 92