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Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Gelion, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Ask Yeekim the source of his Russian MID quote. My is the same.

    strawman

    may be the fact that it was created by Nazis and was used for anti-soviet propaganda?
     
  2. Mallipeep

    Mallipeep Warlord

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    Sorry about that, i didnt read Yeekims quote and spot the exaggeration there.


    I take it you mean you were using strawman argument, pointing out that one source of data about the deportations that our history books are based on, was suspicios - hence everything about deportation needs to be rewritten?

    In the other case ( you assumed i meant every number in a book - not just the ones regardings deportations) - id still like to see some sources backing up your claim.


    When, where and how WAS it used, any sources?

    The fact that it was created by Nazis is irrelevant, NKVD/KGB archives were created by very communists ( who are also into propaganda a lot, in case you didnt know that) - it doesnt mean that those archives were created for propaganda.


    edit:
    i'd honestly like to know this
    i have been under impression that historians usually think about these things a little, and try to verify the sources - hearing such a claim on internet forum without sources makes that claim a bit dubious

    on the general topic i have some mixed feelings about.
    I feel baltics were on the more evil side, and i dont like equating communism with nazism that some people here like to do - i mean both regimes were utterly bad, Stalin and Hitler really loved eachother when it came to affirming power - but genoiciding purely based on racial hatred has this more inherent evil to it - compared to genocide for economic/power gain that the communists did.
    at that moment communism of course seemed even worse - so cant really blame those who joined the german side in hopes of gaining independence

    the original article is Fox News style hogwash tho, there arent any serious fascist organizations here by any definition , might be few loons but i hear about these nutcases less every year. Listening to Johan Backmann is equivalent to listening to Glenn Beck. And not letting those so called antifascist in pretty much like blacklisting football hooligans.
     
  3. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    A few major sources are "suspicious" (see example below). Which makes the numbers, taken from these sources unreliable, to say the least, and the quality of such materials as White Book questionable. Taking also into account political, non-scientific motives of such investigations.

    Publishing book "Year of Estonian People's sufferings" in 1943.
    http://www.slideshare.net/Maemees/eesti-rahva-kannatuste-aasta-1-osa
    Some numbers of Estonian historians were taken from there.
    If you can read Russian I can give you other links.
     
  4. Mallipeep

    Mallipeep Warlord

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    You have not shown enough proof yet, to make it reasonable to question most of the numbers and their order of magnitude. Yes there are some bad numbers thrown around - but you are accusing most of the research done on the subject to be flawed.

    The book seems to be released by "Estonian Selfgovernance Alliance" ( Eesti Omavalitsuse Liit) and not "Zentralstelle zur Erfassung der Verschleppten".

    I cant read Russian yet at the moment, and really dont feel the need to (yet).

    Until you have sufficient proof ( most history based on one questionable source / most of the sources discredited ) in english/estonian - its rather reasonable for me to assume that most of the russian sources are politically, not scientifically motivated and hence questionable.
     
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    The organization was created in German occupation zone, its purpose was to "investigate crimes of Bolsheviks", it published materials during wartime, with numbers which are inconsistent with both internal NKVD and German SD data. What kind of "sufficient proof" do you need - the book must have disclaimer that it was written with intention to use it in propaganda and contains falsifications? With signature of Goebbels?

    I'm not accusing most of the research done on the subject to be flawed.
    I'm accusing Estonian official description of those events as tendentious, anti-Russian and using unconfirmed or falsified data.

    By politically motivated I meant research works initiated and paid by government. With easily predictable results. Correct me if I'm wrong, there is no such Estonia-related articles in Russia.
     
  6. Scrapest

    Scrapest Chieftain

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    Sorry to interrupt for a second but I wonder why you take RT seriously then?

    (HINT: Go to Youtube RT channel and read their description)
     
  7. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    What you mean?
    I don't watch RT and I'm not taking it seriously when it comes to historical data, because RT is not a research institute. It's just a TV channel created with purpose to inform Western people about Russian position on world politics subjects.
     
  8. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    The only figure taken from the "Year.." in the White Book is this:
    Spoiler :
    Analogous assessments, especially about the damage done to agriculture
    in 1940—41, have also been published in 1943 in the collection
    „Eesti rahva kannatuste aasta” (The Year of Suffering for the Estonian
    Nation). According to the calculations, the direct damage done to the
    agriculture during the first Soviet year amounted to about 200m reichsmarks;
    this sum did not include the losses of the agricultural cooperation.
    That does not exactly make "The Year..." "a major source" of the White Book, imho. Saying that historical research on deportations is based on non-critical acceptance of Nazi propaganda would be funny, if this wasn't a tad offensive. As you could imagine, this subject has literally been researched to death, using every possible source, of which there is no lack of. If we speak of deportation carried out in June 1941, we get down to the actual list of names, with range of figures between 9,146-10,016. There are no "estimations", there are lists of persons. There is a margin of error (writing of names might differ, some people get "lost" etc) but saying actual numbers differ 6-7 times is wishful thinking.

    EDIT2: If you want to look at the list of names, go here:
    http://www.okupatsioon.ee/et/andmed-ja-nimekirjad
    and see Memento books (1996-2005) on the right . Each book has an alphabetical list with short description of what happened to the person. Newer lists do not include names already published in older ones (double entries are made only when new information is found and are marked as such).

    EDIT: I am actually having a complete deja vu moment - I remember someone (don't think it was you, though), claiming in this very board, that pinning Katyn on NKVD was "Goebbels' propaganda" a few scant years ago.
     
  9. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Number of deported in June 1941 is correct. Simply because this problem is very well researched by historians and falsification of this number would be too obvious. Do you have sources which confirm that majority of deported people died or that cattle cars were used for transportation?
    Example of number which was taken from Nazi propaganda materials, is number of executed people in 1940-1941.

    The number which was exaggerated 6-7 times is a total number of deaths due to Soviet repressions. White book gives estimation of ~60.000, including in this number people who was mobilized in army and killed by Nazis, evacuated in USSR, missed in action or fled to the other countries.
     
  10. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    The lists include dates of death. Of those deported in June 1940, approximately half perished. As to the means of transport, how about testimony of those who survived, including some of my relatives?
    About 8000 arrestees, of whom a few hundred survived the war? These numbers are included in materials I referenced above and similarly researched in depth. Btw, mere fact that ZEV operated during Nazi occupation does not mean its lists are "propaganda materials". The organization was staffed by Estonians and its purpose was to register and hopefully locate and retrieve missing persons. Registry cards were opened based on reports of relatives/witnesses and what actual materials remain have been corroborated by other sources. A number of double entries, mostly due to differences in spelling of names, have been found and corrected.
    If it says "fled to other countries" then that is not "number of deaths", is it? Anyway, I can't find the number (or section) you refer to? According to table on p 38, the total of "irreversible population losses" during 1940-1941 is ~44,400. Which is definitely on the right scale. Saying the right number is 1/7 of this is nonsense. Yes, this figure includes 24,000 army and work battalion draftees and that's been pointed out.

    EDIT: You will note that the very next section of the table, losses of population during German occupation, similarly includes those who fled to the West or fell in army, etc, so there is no anti-Soviet bias in the selection or presentation of data.
     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    8000 arrestees - for which period of time?
    If for 1940, how does it correspond to this:

    In six months of 1940 at least 1082 persons were arrested.

    http://www.riigikogu.ee/public/Riigikogu/TheWhiteBook.pdf (pg. 13)
    If for period 1940-1941, how does it correspond to previous number of deported which you posted?
    How many of that people were arrested for political reasons and how many for usual crimes such as theft or murder?
    Why they did not survive after war, what were the reasons of death? Mortality rate in GULAG was pretty high, a few percents a year (2%-3% IIRC), but not 95%?
    Why White Book claims number of executed in 1940-1941 as "at least 1950", but internal NKVD data contains ~160 executed, mostly for crimes committed during revolution and for repressions against communists?

    According to archival data, passenger cars were provided for transportation.
    I would like to see more convincing evidence than your words about some testimony.

    This is quoted as "Population losses". It is the table on page 38, you missed so-called "second occupation".

    Yes, the fact that people killed in a war by the Germans, fled abroad or missing are somehow included into victims of "Soviet occupation" is pointed out in the table. What common Estonian people know about all this? They know the following:
    Just to remind you, pre-war Estonian population was 1.130.000. 10% is much more than even official, vastly exaggerated number of losses.
     
  12. Scrapest

    Scrapest Chieftain

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    http://www.catholicvoiceoakland.org/2008/2008images/2008_1103_08RedTerrorPhotoG.jpg
    http://www.poloniatoday.com/images/record4-2.jpg
    http://shaan.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c774753ef015432f696d0970c-300wi
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluebeart/4452948086/
    http://www.okupatsioon.ee/fotod/fotod2001/fotod4/fotod402.jpg
    http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36855702.jpg
    http://newspepper.su/images/2011/6/14/vagon.jpg

    Also a cattle cart drawing by a Jew that the nazis used (ironic eh, nazis used to drive jews into the oven and Estonians to their death or at least ruin their lives)
    http://pagesperso-orange.fr/d-d.natanson/loehaas_theresin1943.jpg
    This time a picture of the same cart used to transport Jews by nazis:
    http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp45a9zUr41qigxoko1_500.jpg
    Another image to compare that the nazis used:
    http://images.ouradio.org/uploads/iasi2.jpg
    This one had a backstory that many of the Jews suffocated or died of thirst. These stories were also known to be told by Estonian deportees who later returned that they were packed like sardines, many died of suffocation as the air was too hard to breed and too few open air holes, also thirst was a problem as they only got water when they reached a station and maybe, maybe some railroad worker would hose the carts with water and people would cool down a little bit.

    I don't know about you but look pretty cattle cart like
     
  13. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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  14. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    If these are passenger cars in your opinion, would you care to post pictures of what cattle cars look like?
    EDIT: Just type "cattle cars" into Google search and you will find hundreds of pictures of cars which look the exact copies of what you posted. The fact that, during wartime, soldiers were also transported by such means does not change them into something else. It, however, makes the claim that deportees were provided with something "better" that much more funny.
    I will give you a hint - passenger cars usually include windows, which makes them less suitable for transporting people who are liable to attempt escape.

    EDIT2: Damn sorry I don't have my copy of The Good Soldier Schwejk handy. I don't remember how the poem written on cattle car went in original (German), but iirc the rough English translation would be:
    "Here (be) fertilizer to the fields,
    eight tons per car -
    eight horses or
    forty-eight men.
    "

    Yeah, I realize that is a fictional book about WW1.
     
  15. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Actually, cattle car by definition from Soviet dictionary of 1941 is something different and pretty much unusable for transportation of people:
    http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/railway/304/ВАГОН (As far as I remember, you can read Russian)

    Looked probably like this:
    Spoiler :


    According to NKVD instruction, transportation of inmates must be done in echelons, equipped for summer human traffic, which is not "cattle cars", but probably looked similarly to military echelons which I posted.
    The other question is how 9.000-10.000 of people were transported in 490 cars, tightly packed by 40-50 people in each car (data from M. Laar's book)? There had to be 20.000-25.000 of people, if they were packed like he claims.
     

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