Anti-ISIS forces committed war crimes in Ramadi.

[Mouthwash]

According to their own standards: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-east/ramadi-gaza-western-hypocrisy/

As the New York Times reported last week, the successful recapture of Ramadi from the Islamic State left the city “in ruins.” Reporter Ben Hubbard described one neighborhood as “a panorama of wreckage so vast that it was unclear where the original buildings had stood.” The city has no electricity or running water, and “Many streets had been erased or remained covered in rubble or blocked by trenches used in the fighting.” When Hubbard asked an Iraqi officer how residents would return to their homes, the officer replied, “Homes? There are no homes.”

Indeed, a different Iraqi officer told the Associated Press “that more than half of the city’s buildings have been destroyed, including government offices, markets, and houses.”

This is devastation orders of magnitude greater than what Gaza suffered. According to UN figures, 9,465 homes in Gaza were completely destroyed and another 9,644 badly damaged, out of a total of roughly 319,000 (the latter figure is my own calculation based on official Palestinian statistics: Dividing Gaza’s total population of 1.82 million by its average household size of 5.7 people gives you 319,000 households). Thus even according to the UN – which traditionally exaggerates Palestinian casualties and damage – only about 6 percent of Gaza’s homes were destroyed or badly damaged. That’s a far cry from “more than half of the city” in Ramadi.

But the reasons for the destruction, in both places, are no less significant than its scope. One, as Hubbard noted, is the inherent difficulty “of dislodging a group that stitches itself into the urban fabric of communities it seizes by occupying homes, digging tunnels, and laying extensive explosives.” In Ramadi, he reported, Islamic State built tunnels under the streets and planted explosives in roads and buildings. Indeed, “Entire areas are considered no-go zones because they have yet to be searched for booby traps left by the jihadists.”

These are the same tactics Hamas used in Gaza: Tunnels, booby traps, and weapons stockpiles were placed in and under civilian buildings on a massive scale. On July 30, 2014, for instance, three Israeli soldiers were killed by “an explosion at a booby-trapped UNRWA health clinic that housed a tunnel entry shaft,” the Times of Israel reported. At the same press briefing where those deaths were announced, an Israeli officer said Hamas had thus far detonated more than 1,000 bombs, destroying “thousands of buildings” in Gaza. As an example, he cited a street the army searched the previous night in which 19 out of 28 buildings were booby-trapped.

But in Gaza, both the Obama administration and European officials blamed Israel for the ensuing destruction. In Ramadi, in contrast, both American and Iraqi officials quite sensibly “placed blame for the city’s destruction on the jihadists, who mined roads and buildings.”

The other factor in Ramadi’s devastation was airstrikes by the U.S.-led coalition. As AP reported, these strikes “smashed large parts of the city into rubble.” Nor is that surprising: When a target area is extensively booby-trapped, even precision airstrikes often cause greater-than-expected damage, because the attacking force can’t know which buildings are wired with explosives, and hitting a wired building will set off massive secondary explosions. Yet airstrikes are unavoidable when fighting militants entrenched in a sea of tunnels and booby-trapped buildings, because using ground troops alone would result in unacceptably high losses for the attacking force.

Consequently, a Pentagon spokesman correctly blamed Islamic State (also known as ISIS or ISIL) for the damage to Ramadi: “One hundred percent of this is on ISIL because no one would be dropping any bombs if ISIL hadn’t gone in there,” Colonel Steven H. Warren told Hubbard.

Yet in Gaza, both the Obama Administration and European officials largely blamed the damage on Israel rather than Hamas, even though Israeli airstrikes were employed for the exact same reason, sometimes caused greater-than-expected damage for the exact same reason, and obviously wouldn’t have been launched at all had Hamas not attacked Israel to begin with. Indeed, Israel’s airstrikes were arguably far more justified than America’s were: Islamic State wasn’t firing missiles at America from Ramadi or digging attack tunnels into American territory from Ramadi. In contrast, Hamas had fired thousands of rockets at Israel from Gaza over the previous decade and dug dozens of cross-border attack tunnels, including one that notoriously emerged right next to a kindergarten.

Ramadi, incidentally, is far from the only example of the way the Obama Administration and Europe hold Israel to a double standard. On Monday, the Elder of Ziyon blog highlighted another one: According to the Herald Scotland, “The British government is refusing to accept evidence of civilian fatalities in UK air strikes from human rights groups monitoring the results of bombing raids” in Syria and Iraq; instead, it relies exclusively on “evidence from its own internal surveillance.” But that same government uncritically accepted NGO reports saying that almost 70 percent of Palestinian casualties in Gaza were civilian, even though Israel scrupulously investigated those reports and found that in reality, about half the casualties were documented members of either Hamas’ military wing or smaller terrorist organizations like Islamic Jihad.

I don’t really expect any Obama Administration or European official to admit to having unjustly criticized Israel during the Gaza war. But any fair-minded person comparing the devastation of Ramadi to that in Gaza should reach the same conclusion a group of high-ranking Western military experts did in a comprehensive report issued last month: that during the Gaza war, Israel “met and in some respects exceeded the highest standards we set for our own nations’ militaries.”

 

[Phrossack]

Is this a thread about ISIS, or about making us look at how great and noble Israel is?

 

[warpus]

Even Russia and the U.S. commit war crimes these days, no wonder a bunch of rebels in a hellhole would stoop down to that level as well.

 

[Mouthwash]

Is this a thread about ISIS, or about making us look at how great and noble Israel is?

It's about Israel, yes. If you aren't going to post something other than mockery, I'd prefer you not post at all.

Even Russia and the U.S. commit war crimes these days, no wonder a bunch of rebels in a hellhole would stoop down to that level as well.

Hamas started firing rockets before the blockade. Russia and the US at least have some rational goal in mind when they commit their crimes. Besides, this isn't about the crimes of Hamas, it's about the purported crimes of Israel.

 

[Bootstoots]

Has there ever been an actual war in which no side committed war crimes? It seems that war crimes, as we define them, are part and parcel of how war actually works.

 

[Mouthwash]

Has there ever been an actual war in which no side committed war crimes? It seems that war crimes, as we define them, are part and parcel of how war actually works.

Pretty much, but the only war crimes anyone pays attention to are those which are claimed to be committed by Israel.

 

[Phrossack]

If this is a thread about Israel, then why the title about Iraq? Why does the article discuss Iraq only to gradually segue into an Israel apology? And if this thread is about Israel, then what is there to discuss? Are we just supposed to say nothing but how great Israel is for destroying a smaller percentage of homes than Iraq? Or is it to turn into a game of saying "Israel is great!" vs. "No it isn't," back and forth?

This thread just seems slightly deceptive, like an article in a newspaper that turns out to be an ad for a product. This one tries to look at first glance like an Iraq thread (which is why I came here) only to turn out to be an ad of sorts for Israel. At least newspaper ad articles have the words "Paid advertisement" above them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If this is a thread about Israel, then why the title about Iraq? Why does the article discuss Iraq only to gradually segue into an Israel apology? And if this thread is about Israel, then what is there to discuss? Are we just supposed to say nothing but how great Israel is for destroying a smaller percentage of homes than Iraq? Or is it to turn into a game of saying "Israel is great!" vs. "No it isn't," back and forth?

This thread just seems slightly deceptive, like an article in a newspaper that turns out to be an ad for a product. This one tries to look at first glance like an Iraq thread (which is why I came here) only to turn out to be an ad of sorts for Israel. At least newspaper ad articles have the words "Paid advertisement" above them.

Bingo.

By the way Mouthwash, your comparison falls flat anyway. In Gaza the IDF are the invaders, slaughtering people in their homes.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Please change the title of this thread.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Welcome to the Middle east since forever
Enjoy your stay

 

[innonimatu]

Pretty much, but the only war crimes anyone pays attention to are those which are claimed to be committed by Israel.

Has Israel recognized the sovereign state of Gaza, to be at war with it?

Or has Israel in its attack on Gaza at least waged war with the intent of capturing the ground and taking full responsibility for it and its population?

The answer to both is a clear no. Israel bombs Gaza out of spite. Gaza is Israel's big prison camp to those it deemed unfit to belong to the approved race of the country. And every time the prisoners get restless and demand to be set free (recognition of independence, freedom to trade and move with the rest of the world), or if something valuable is found within the prison that the gaoler wants to have, they get clobbered. It's nasty. And that is what the rest of the world cannot fail to notice, despite your great efforts at propaganda. And that is what leads the rest of the world to pin the responsibility for the regular beatings on Israel."War crimes" are not technical the best definition of those. It would be better to call them gross violations of the so-called "human rights". Or an apartheid state with a greater degree of sadism and cynicism than even the south africans managed in their time.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Israel bombs Gaza out of spite. Gaza is Israel's big prison

I find it ironic that Hamas killed unarmed Palestinian protesters, and despite being democraticly elected to power shut down its rival political opposition. Then decided it would spend vast money carrying out attacks across into Israel.Of course everything escalated from there.

Its not like Egypt has blockaided the Gaza strip from the other side as well, due to the threat of terrorism / insurgency / freedom fighters posed by an open border with Gaza
The Middle East seems to be a hopeless, endless wars, droughts and terrorism.

According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers were closed down and journalists were harassed.[197] Fatah demonstrations were forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[198]

Hamas and other militant groups continued to fire Qassam rockets across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[199] In response, Israel targeted Qassam launchers and military targets and declared the Gaza Strip a hostile entity. In January 2008, Israel curtailed travel from Gaza, the entry of goods, and cut fuel supplies, resulting in power shortages. This brought charges that Israel was inflicting collective punishment on the Gaza population, leading to international condemnation. Despite multiple reports from within the Strip that food and other essentials were in short supply,[200] Israel said that Gaza had enough food and energy supplies for weeks.[201]

The Israeli government uses economic means to pressure Hamas. Among other things, it caused Israeli commercial enterprises like banks and fuel companies to stop doing business with the Gaza Strip. The role of private corporations in the relationship between Israel and the Gaza Strip is an issue that has not been extensively studied.[202]

Due to continued rocket attacks including 50 in one day, on March 2008, air strikes and ground incursions by the IDF led to the deaths of over 110 Palestinians and extensive damage to Jabalia

 

[abradley]

Pretty much, but the only war crimes anyone pays attention to are those which are claimed to be committed by Israel.

Agree, IMHO, there's a media bias against Israel.

Quite a change from the 50's, when the MSM backed Israel in it's conflict.

Reminds me of a tale of a leftist French opinion writer who praised Israel, called it a beacon of liberal values surrounded by dictatorships. He did this just before the 67 war

Main article: Origins of the Six-Day War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Background
{Snip}

In May 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.[32] Nasser began massing his troops in two defensive lines[33] in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[34][35] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war,[36][37] and Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23.[38][39][40] On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan.[41] They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War.

After the '6 day war' was over he wrote a scathing anti-Israel article, describing it like most on this forum describe it. His friends asked him why?

His reply went something like this, 'Before the war I thought they were doomed, but they survived.'

 

[Zkribbler]

I'm looking for an indication that anti-ISIS forces committed war crimes in Ramadi. All I see is indication of intense urban warfare, comparable to the WWII destruction of Stalingrad, Caen, Manila, Berlin, etc.

War is bad. War is really, really, really bad. But it is not a crime.

 

[warpus]

Oh, this is about Israel. Right.

 

[PhroX]

So basically, what this thread is saying is that Israel does bad things but it's OK because other people do bad things too?

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I'm looking for an indication that anti-ISIS forces committed war crimes in Ramadi. All I see is indication of intense urban warfare, comparable to the WWII destruction of Stalingrad, Caen, Manila, Berlin, etc.

War is bad. War is really, really, really bad. But it is not a crime.

Destruction of civilian property is considered (Article 8, 2, (a), (iv)) a war crime, but unfortunately it's unavoidable in war.

 

[Berzerker]

the only war crimes anyone pays attention to are those which are claimed to be committed by Israel.

we expect better from our friends, especially if we're buying the weapons

 

[Mouthwash]

This thread just seems slightly deceptive, like an article in a newspaper that turns out to be an ad for a product. This one tries to look at first glance like an Iraq thread (which is why I came here) only to turn out to be an ad of sorts for Israel. At least newspaper ad articles have the words "Paid advertisement" above them.

Please change the title of this thread.

I don't think it's misleading. Nothing's stopping you from discussing Ramadi or war crimes in general. Quite a few posters have already done it.

Bingo.

By the way Mouthwash, your comparison falls flat anyway. In Gaza the IDF are the invaders, slaughtering people in their homes.

Er... so it's OK to slaughter people in their homes if the UN recognizes your sovereignty over the area? Not sure what kind of point you're making.

Has Israel recognized the sovereign state of Gaza, to be at war with it?

Here is a full list of all official declarations of war in the past 70 years. ISIS isn't on it.

Or has Israel in its attack on Gaza at least waged war with the intent of capturing the ground and taking full responsibility for it and its population?

No, that's impossible without destroying a lot more homes. Also, all drone strikes are illegal under this standard.

(It's lovely that you think Israel ought to capture any land it wages war on. I don't think the people living in it would agree, btw.)

The answer to both is a clear no. Israel bombs Gaza out of spite.

So Israel doesn't recognize Gaza as a state and doesn't want to occupy it either, therefore Israel bombs Gaza for the heck of it.

I feel like a lot of things are missing between your premises and conclusion.

Gaza is Israel's big prison camp to those it deemed unfit to belong to the approved race of the country. And every time the prisoners get restless and demand to be set free (recognition of independence, freedom to trade and move with the rest of the world), or if something valuable is found within the prison that the gaoler wants to have, they get clobbered. It's nasty. And that is what the rest of the world cannot fail to notice, despite your great efforts at propaganda. And that is what leads the rest of the world to pin the responsibility for the regular beatings on Israel."War crimes" are not technical the best definition of those. It would be better to call them gross violations of the so-called "human rights". Or an apartheid state with a greater degree of sadism and cynicism than even the south africans managed in their time.

Yeah, you're a lot more edgy if you don't bother with all that 'argument' business.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Er... so it's OK to slaughter people in their homes if the UN recognizes your sovereignty over the area? Not sure what kind of point you're making.

Funny, you seem pretty clear on it. Yes, if you have recognized sovereignty over an area and are repelling a recognized invader, you will be less likely to be condemned than would be an aggressive invader bent on debilitating a neighbor through arbitrary slaughter. So Israel will continue to be rightly condemned for their regular murder sprees in Gaza, and eventually said condemnation may force the US to withdraw our misguided protection of this rogue state. We can hope, anyway.