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Anti-Steam Petition

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by techathon, May 7, 2010.

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  1. Nick Danger

    Nick Danger Steam should be optional

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    Again, False Choice. My point 2 was "2- option to get the DD via steam, authenticate installation online with steam, then not require steam to run in the background to play a single-player game offline". Using steam to authenticate a DD is fine with me as I clearly said.

    Your false choice is:
    1- accept requiring steam to run in the background to play a authenticated single-player game offline
    or
    2- no steam DRM and instead some other DRM

    At least you're consistent regarding your rhetorical 'skills'.

    Also, my point 1 already answered your above question:
    "1- give us the choice to buy a dvd and keep the existing civ4 method"

    Civ4's existing DRM is okie-dokey by me, as I clearly said.

    It's 'right' with a small r, not 'Right'. Your argument is silly, and that you proffer it shows the paucity of your position. At least it's not another False Choice :)
     
  2. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    As of the updated OP,
    /signed.

    By signing this petition I recognise it's likely to have little if any impact. ;)

    Also, you' do well to fix the spelling of Meier's name.
     
  3. isndl

    isndl Chieftain

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    Why not? Look at the music industry: once bogged down by DRM on every song, and now we have DRM-free stores everywhere. If you make it easy for people to buy DRM-free, they will pay for DRM-free.

    None. No DRM whatsoever, because it hurts paying customers more than the pirates. Failing that, simple CD-keys. Any blockbuster title will have its DRM cracked within the first couple days, if not the very first day, and meanwhile you have legitimate customers who are caught by your trap. Do you honestly believe that any casual pirate will decide to head over to the store to purchase a copy when they see the game isn't available for torrent in the first couple days? College students, the demographic traditionally most likely to pirate, generally are the ones who cannot afford to purchase it to begin with.

    The PC gaming industry will never die, not until PCs are replaced outright. All your console games and handheld games are coded on the PC; the 360 is practically a PC as it stands anyways. To leave the PC market means leaving a huge potential audience open for anyone to step in, on a platform where the internet allows anyone and everyone to collaborate and become a developer. And that's ignoring how so many genres, Strategy and MMO in particular, fail to translate well because of interface limitations.

    Go ahead, stop developing for the PC. In fact, I invite you to do it. Because if you leave, there's more room for others to grow.

    It's your right to say DRM is mandatory, and it's our right to say no. This is an impasse in which only actions will make a difference - if you disagree with our feelings, then keep going with yours and don't complain if things don't turn out as you expect.

    There is much more at stake here than just a game. Fighting Steam is not about fighting DRM, it's about reminding the developers that their interests are not entirely coinciding with ours. I have no doubt the game will turn out to be successful regardless, but to sit back and remain silent is not just accepting their decision, it's giving it our tacit approval and encouraging them to go even further.

    Neutrality only helps the aggressor: you either support the change or you don't. The requirement of Steam would likely have minimal impact on myself given my current circumstances, but that does not mean I should not fight against its inclusion anyways.
     
  4. grommit5

    grommit5 Warlord

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    Someone, somewhere has been predicting the end of PC gaming since the 80's. It hasn't happened. One company goes away another will take its place. There are a lot of talented programmers out there. IMHO
     
  5. Coldie

    Coldie Chieftain

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    I think Amazon.com sells something. Maybe a physical DVD?
     
  6. ahenobarb

    ahenobarb Warlord

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    So many possible posts to reply to, but I'll just start here (Not trying to raise hackles [hackles?], but tone of voice doesn't transcribe unfortunately):

    Chalk: yes, I could learn the features and functions of Steam. It is probably very customizable and there may be ways to remove/ignore features I don't like. however, I would rather spend my time learning the features and functions of the program I purchsed rather than some third-party annoyware.

    Buy the disc? Then there's no link, right? The impossible is acheived! Hooray!

    Yes. And Civ IV already has another form. I'm ok with it. Are you?

    Speaking as a guy that owns a software company, I can respect the need to protect copyrights. However, I also value my customers and don't force them into 3rd party solutions to my own problems. Also, having been to China, Steam ain't gonna help ya a bit there, mate. There will always be some level of piracy. It's a fact of life.

    No, they won't. Simple as that. It's still a market and it will be filled.

    Reductia Ad Absurdem. It's not the icon, its the program the icon represents because its unnecessary. I don't know your age, but many of us in the Civ community have been playing since Civ 1 first came out. We bought all the titles, prostelytized for them, invested hours of our lives into them, and we never needed Steam. Seems incredible, right?

    Holy Jezum Crow! Huff-and-Puff! At this point, I'm wondering do you work for Steam? Do you own 15% of their shares or something? I mean, its an "itty bitty program" that brings fertility to new mothers and sunshine to dark places, unites all mankind and what not. What kind of Troglydite can I be? Why are my only choices Steam or GameSpy? GamersGate does a good job for my EU3 titles. I buy them there, validate them there, and it never bothers me again. But do I really need any of this? It's getting to be like a cell phone. I just need to make some calls. next thing I know its a swiss army knife of feature creep and the phone app is buried beneath a ton of other junk. My phone probably already has Steam!

    Also, regarding your "boycott Modern Warfare [whatever] game" screen shot. That's what I don't want, somebody able to take a screenshot of what game I'm playing on my own computer. Leave me alone already!

    That screenshot is pretty much showing everyone what a trojan horse programs like Steam are. I'm playing a game not joining a community.

    You are right about one thing, we are probably stuck with it ... for now. But that doesn't mean it doesn't stink. Or that I shouldn't complain about it. Let my own lack of a voice be heard! :king:
     
  7. CivFanMUC

    CivFanMUC Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I posted this into another thread but I see it fit's here as well, due to (not only) this post:
    Publishers need to learn that every restriction they put upon us is one more reason to lean up against that restriction.

    Lets have a look at Movies.
    If you buy a retail Movie-DVD and put it into your DVD-Player what happens?
    * You see a lot of trailers. If you're lucky, you can skip them one-by-one. If the publisher is extremely generous, you can skip them all by presssing the "Menu-Button", but that doesn't happen very often, at least not within my DVD-Collection, which includes ~300+ DVDs.
    * If you want to start the Movie, you have to see a "Copying is Stealing"-Spot which you usually cannot skip.
    * Then, finally - the Movie starts. Yay!

    Now, lets say - a friend gave us a DVD which has no shiny cover. Instead only the title of the movie is manually written onto the disc. We insert it into our DVD-Player. What happens now?
    * No Trailers, No Ads, the main menu starts immediately. We don't even have to press the menu-button, for the DVD already got into the Main-Menu while we walked from our DVD-Player to our couch.
    * Then we start the Movie. What happens? The Movie starts. No "you are a baaad baad thief, don't you ever rape our intellectual property".
    Let's be honest. That's exactly what 99% of customers want. Insert a DVD, watch the movie. That's it. That's what those evil pirate release groups provide - userfriendly media experience.

    With games it's all the same. People don't want to have the Disc (they bought) in their drive. Solution? NoCD-Patch. In case of Civ IV BtS Firaxis/2K thankfully supported us with this NoCD-Patch - for other games, there are other sources.

    You mentioned Spore? The most restrictive "copy-protection" ever made (since then). It turned into a "customer-protection" for many potential customers did not buy it. And it became the most pirated game in history (again, since then).

    You see the point? The more restrictive your anti-piracy measure is, the more it will be bypassed.

    DRM isn't the future. Regarding music, DRM is a failure of the past. The music industry already learned out of their own-goal regarding DRM-contaminated music. Seems like game industry will have to make the same mistakes on their own.



    /Edit:
    /sign
     
  8. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    Just because something was one way in the past doesn't mean it will be that way for ever - the fact that someone would think this was the case in a technological domain is hilarious.

    Things evolve, improve and change. Get over it
     
  9. ahenobarb

    ahenobarb Warlord

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    Argh! "Reductio ad Absurdum". Never type as fast as you are thinking. :lol:

    No. ;)

    Evolve, yes. Change, yes. Improve, unfortunately this is not the case ... in this case.
     
  10. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    Single activation, infinite re-download > CD-in-drive DRM.

    More convenient for the customer, more effective for the publisher.
     
  11. Padje Dog

    Padje Dog Warlord

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    Chalks loves Steam. :D

    Padje Dog doesn't. :mad:

    Chalks wants to convince Padje Dog Steam is what Padje Dog wants. :crazyeye:

    Padje Dog already knows what Padje Dog wants. :mischief:

    I have friends. I have mods. I have multiplayer gameplay. I have updates. I have chat.

    I don't need Steam. No Steam please.
     
  12. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    Call me crazy, but I'm fairly sure you don't have them in Civ5, and if Civ5 is using Steam for these things, then you're stuck with it.

    You don't even seem to understand what Steamworks is doing in this situation. You can't just look at the thing that's providing all the mods, multiplayer, friendslists and chat features and say "I don't want that but I want all those features it was providing"

    It doesn't work like that. You need steam because it gives you thinks you want. You are scared of the word "Steam" it seems.
     
  13. Nictel

    Nictel Emperor

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    Ah! The 'loyal fan argument', let me first say that forcing you to use a particular thing is never fun. Choice is good and I think everyone should have choice, however this is unfortunately and especially in the ICT world most of the times not the case.

    As owner and probably former employee of a company, you know that companies work with particular software. To give a simple example: Where you love OpenOffice, your company only wants you to use MS Office. Something you have to live with when you want to work there. This is like that, you have to deal with Steam to be able to play Civ 5. The reason for this is of course uniformity, if you all use different file types in a company you won't be able to work together effectively. Steam gives this uniformity to players. It makes sure everyone has the same game version and gives a base for communication. Taking a lot of work of the developers.

    Now you might argue that this isn't work, you do this for your enjoyment. But civ 4 forced stuff on us too. Like a gamespy account, something I already owned. But that didn't work, I needed a separate civ4 gamespy account. (I now have 3 of them!)
    That didn't cause such an uproar, then it is the fact that steam is a complete software package.

    I as an avid Steam user don't mind, were it D2D for instance I would probably been just as unhappy as you. Steam however is a very nice piece of software, I am sure you will grow fond of it. That is if you are also interested in other games beside Civ.
    It's kind of like iTunes with a forum and chat. (Ok that doesn't sound nice :lol: but it is.)

    Now to go back to your loyal fan argument, ok I have not been playing since the original Civ (I'm 23 ;)) but have been since civ2. From floppy disks to cds to dvds I have also seen the various sorts of DRM. My first experience was probably the single account use cd-key with DiabloII. Forcing me to buy the game myself unlike copying the game over with floppies from a friend. (We once used 30 floppies for Settlers 2 :p)
    Then it slowly went to pieces of nasty hidden software that checked if you had the original cd in the drive. These often slowed down your pc and stayed on it even after you uninstalled the game. Now we see things like permanent internet connections and limited installs coming. These are awful because authentication servers fail and people buy new computers / re-install them.

    Around this time, it was with the release of the Orange Box, I came in contact with Steam. I never really had bad experiences with Steam though I must say performance has greatly increased over the last 2 years. Steam does work offline but it excels when it is online permanently because of the automatic updates and the new 'cloud saves'.

    I see Steam more as a gaming hub than DRM, which it indirectly is. (Though some developers/publishers feel the need to throw there own DRM in there as well.)

    Steam can be a platform for you to add friends, chat during games and more. However you can if you wish set Steam to a bare minimum. At this minimum you only see Steam when you start up Civ 5 (which you can do with a direct short-cut), when it checks for updates and when you exit Civ 5. You can also set it so that nobody can see when your online or what game you are currently playing. However I advise you not to do this and try it out with all its "invading" features for a month or so.

    Ergo: Lack of choice is never fun but it can be the most efficient.


    How I guess you play now:
    IM on -> Hi dudes! Want to play civ?
    *Friend is occupied and does not respond*
    *30 minutes later*
    "Oh I was already playing but sure."
    "Ok I'll host"
    *start civ*
    *start teamspeak*
    "Dude I can find your game"
    ....
    "oh wait there it is!"
    *play*


    How you play with Steam:
    Steam -> friend is playing civ
    Steam chat -> "Hey up for a multiplayer game?"
    "Sure I'll host just let me save my current game"
    ...
    "ok you can join"
    *Join friend in game*
    *Play*

    ;)
     
  14. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Evolution can go in the wrong direction.

    Steam is like a birth defect to me in terms of what type of evolution it is.
     
  15. CivilizedTiger

    CivilizedTiger Prince

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    @ahenobarb
    I think what you were looking for is "reductio ad ridiculum", or something like that, I might have spelled it wrong. (wouldn't that be hypocrite of me? :)) "Reductio ad absurdum" is a valid inference method, whereas "reductio ad ridiculum" is illogical. Yeah, I know that this is silly, since ridiculum and absurdum are more or less the same thing, I was actually expecting the logical fallacy to be in the series of "argumentum ad", but... what can you do? (Yeah, I must admit, I did a quick check before posting this, I was going to say argumentum ad absurdum in stead of reductio ad ridiculum)

    @Nictel
    There's a big difference which invalidates your analogy with office at the workplace. Incidentally, analogies are almost always illogical specifically because it's so easy to get lost in differences which might seem irrelevant. Anyway, the thing is, if one wants the wage from a company, they must put up with the company's demands. On the other hand, there are ways in which you can enjoy a game without having to put up with extra limitations.

    Unfortunately, I don't know to how many people this extends, but I can assure you that the only reason why I buy games is that I think it's the moral thing to do. My buying games has nothing to do with any kind of fear of the law, has nothing to do with a lack of availability of games in pirate copies, it is only me doing what I think is right. Even if games were downloadable from the devs without any kind of protection, I'd still buy them if I wanted to play them. However, as I've said, this doesn't necessarily extend to others. BUT, the point here, is that any kind of inconveniences which the devs place in games are only ever going to affect those who want to buy the game. Think about it: the one who gets the pirated version doesn't have to put up with almost anything and can enjoy the game without paying, whereas the honest customer has to accept extra limitations. How exactly can this be a good thing?

    Anyway, I'd very much like to play this game, but if steam stays mandatory, I'll only buy the game for the moral aspect, because I'll be playing the more enjoyable version, the one which doesn't annoy me.

    For the record, I agree that Steam is a great service. But the price for using it is too great for me. Control of my own stuff and privacy are way too important to me, even if it would be ludicrous to suggest that Valve will ever use their Steam given control in any bad way, I don't like the very idea of it. And yes, I realize I'm in the minority.
     
  16. Hail

    Hail Satan's minion

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    /sign
     
  17. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    No it's not. It is reasonable middle ground between publishers and consumers. A single activation unlimited download system is as acceptable as it gets.

    You can stand stomping your little feet on the "absolutely no DRM is ever acceptable in any form" side of the fence, but you're extreme views are going to be ignored. They are already being ignored by every single mainstream game publisher.
     
  18. CivilizedTiger

    CivilizedTiger Prince

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    @Chalks
    It's not so much the DRM that annoys me. I have no problem with activating Torchlight online, for instance, but I can do it directly with the company that made the game, no third parties involved, and that matters a lot to me. And I also don't need to be online for any other reason than to activate the game.

    Sure, Steam offers a lot of great features. But I don't want it. And I don't want others to tell me what's good for me and to force me to do what's best. The price for using Steam is privacy and some control, and even though I can't necessarily expect these to be negatively affecting me, the very idea makes it too high a price.
    But anyway, this is a subjective reason, I understand I'm a minority. Then again, I'm going to act based on my subjective reasons, not on the ones of the majority. ;)
     
  19. Nictel

    Nictel Emperor

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    I am aware that my comparison is somewhat shaky, but I exchange the wage you are paid with the enjoyment you are "paid"/get from a game. :p

    As for the piracy aspect, I agree with you on the moral side, I also dislike having to go to shady sites for cracks and keys.
    To my knowledge though the retail version also uses steamworks and that when you pirate a Steamworks game you still have to use it. But you use it offline and crack it so that you can play the game without having actually bought it. (I could be wrong though as I never extensively looked on how you go about pirating Steamwork games.)
     
  20. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    Why is a third party inherently a bad thing?

    There is a situation here where Firaxis could have spent 6 months programming a whole networking infrastructure, friends list, chat, achievements, content distribution, automated update system, version tracking, purchase validation themselves.

    There's another situation where they could have got all of that from Steam for free and release the game 6 months earlier.

    What is your argument for Firaxis choosing the first option? It makes such overwhelming logical sense for them to choose Steam, the only conclusion I can come to for any objection is that you don't understand the quantity of essential functionality Steam is providing to them.
     
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