Antiquity Civs as Regional "Wellfonts"

[Xandinho]

Though is Gupta contemporaneous with Maurya?

Gupta came a little later, although it still fits into Antiquity. It was one of the largest Indian empires, and I think it's very likely that it will make its debut in the future.

 

[moondog385]

Gupta came a little later, although it still fits into Antiquity. It was one of the largest Indian empires, and I think it's very likely that it will make its debut in the future.

I hope we see at least a couple more Indian and Chinese dynasties and they don’t just stick to the paths in the base game. I would like to see Gupta, Song, and Delhi. Perhaps even Maratha later down the line.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Not sure if it would be possible but it would be cool

 

[RedCourtJester]

I hope we see at least a couple more Indian and Chinese dynasties and they don’t just stick to the paths in the base game. I would like to see Gupta, Song, and Delhi. Perhaps even Maratha later down the line.

The resorting to a second great wall for Ming and stepwells for Mughals makes me think that the devs' ingenuity for representing more than three Indias or Chinas is a little tapped at the moment. It keeps me realistic about getting full pathways for any other part of the world.

 

[Xandinho]

I hope we see at least a couple more Indian and Chinese dynasties and they don’t just stick to the paths in the base game. I would like to see Gupta, Song, and Delhi. Perhaps even Maratha later down the line.

The resorting to a second great wall for Ming and stepwells for Mughals makes me think that the devs' ingenuity for representing more than three Indias or Chinas is a little tapped at the moment. It keeps me realistic about getting full pathways for any other part of the world.

I'm sure that at least China will have more. The Chinese Civ market is probably the first or second largest, and given how much love China received in Civ6, I expect nothing less in Civ7.

China is very well-documented historically and rich in elements that can be translated into Civ. I find it really hard to believe that they've exhausted all their creativity for China and can't come up with anything new for a Tang civilization, for example.

I also don't think India is finished, as there is still much to explore in the Subcontinent.

However, I agree that other parts of the world should receive attention before they return to China and India (and, additionally, Southeast Asia). I'd prioritize the Americas, Africa, Mesopotamia, and Oceania in the next releases.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The resorting to a second great wall for Ming and stepwells for Mughals makes me think that the devs' ingenuity for representing more than three Indias or Chinas is a little tapped at the moment. It keeps me realistic about getting full pathways for any other part of the world.

Yeah, I don't want to have a Song Great Wall and Gupta Stepwell.

 

[Xandinho]

By the way, since we're on the topic of Antiquity civilizations, Phoenicia and Numidia were mentioned as part of Carthage’s elements, with Numidia being a particularly direct reference through the "Numidian Cavalry."

Does this reduce the chances of these civs appearing in Civ7?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

By the way, since we're on the topic of Antiquity civilizations, Phoenicia and Numidia were mentioned as part of Carthage’s elements, with Numidia being a particularly direct reference through the "Numidian Cavalry."

Does this reduce the chances of these civs appearing in Civ7?

Probably, unfortunately. I didn't expect both Phoenicia and Carthage to be in the same game considering the amount of uniques they would share. As for Numida, it would also be strange to have them without a Numidian Cavalry UU.

 

[RedCourtJester]

By the way, since we're on the topic of Antiquity civilizations, Phoenicia and Numidia were mentioned as part of Carthage’s elements, with Numidia being a particularly direct reference through the "Numidian Cavalry."

Does this reduce the chances of these civs appearing in Civ7?

I think they are ruled out of antiquity, as it seems the devs had to pool together several ideas to make Carthage work as a kind of placeholder for all three.

That said, I think both Phoenicia and Numidia (or other Berber civs) would work great in a hypothetical "pre-antiquity" era that didn't require unique infrastructure and wonders and focused more on nomadism and less "architectural" cultural features (which I think would benefit civs like the Olmec, Nok, Funan, Lapita, etc. etc.). Not sure how compelling such an era could be made, but who knows.

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

I tried to put together a "minimum" model without creating fully new lines and trying to compress whenever possible, and my main takeaway is that looking for paths probably isn't the way to go about things. The intrigue provided by individual choices seems to be the true focus, regardless of whether or not they march towards a "coherent" roster. Nevertheless, here's what I put together with my strict rules (don't put much weight on theoretical nations past Antiquity:

REGION	ANTIQUITY	EXPLORATION	MODERN
North America	Mississipian	Shawnee	America
Central America	Maya	Aztec	Mexico
South America	Nazca	Inca	Columbia
Polynesia	Tu'i Tonga	Hawai'i	Māori
North Africa	Wagadou	Songhai	Asante
East Africa	Aksum	Swahili	Buganda
Arabia	Egypt	Abbasid	Ottoman (though it's actually looking like they'll be Exploration...)
West Asia	Persia	Mongolia	Qajar
China	Han	Ming	Qing

East Asia	Silla	Shōgunate	Meiji
Southeast Asia	Champa	Dai Vet	Siam
Southeast Asia the Second	Khmer	Majapahit	Nepal
India	Maurya	Chola	Mughal
Iberia	Carthage	Spain	Morocco
Western Europe	Rome	Norman	France
British Isles	Anglo-Saxons	Scotland	Great Britain
Central Europe	Goths	Germany	Prussia
Eastern Europe	Greece	Bulgaria	Russia
Northern Europe	Norse	Iceland	Sweden

Theoretically, though, that's the world's Antiquity filled out in 6 more as of yet unrevealed Civilizations. Not sure whether that feels close or insurmountable....

 

[RedCourtJester]

I tried to put together a "minimum" model without creating fully new lines and trying to compress whenever possible, and my main takeaway is that looking for paths probably isn't the way to go about things. The intrigue provided by individual choices seems to be the true focus, regardless of whether or not they march towards a "coherent" roster. Nevertheless, here's what I put together with my strict rules (don't put much weight on theoretical nations past Antiquity:

REGION	ANTIQUITY	EXPLORATION	MODERN
North America	Mississipian	Shawnee	America
Central America	Maya	Aztec	Mexico
South America	Nazca	Inca	Columbia
Polynesia	Tu'i Tonga	Hawai'i	Māori
North Africa	Wagadou	Songhai	Asante
East Africa	Aksum	Swahili	Buganda
Arabia	Egypt	Abbasid	Ottoman (though it's actually looking like they'll be Exploration...)
West Asia	Persia	Mongolia	Qajar
China	Han	Ming	Qing

East Asia	Silla	Shōgunate	Meiji
Southeast Asia	Champa	Dai Vet	Siam
Southeast Asia the Second	Khmer	Majapahit	Nepal
India	Maurya	Chola	Mughal
Iberia	Carthage	Spain	Morocco
Western Europe	Rome	Norman	France
British Isles	Anglo-Saxons	Scotland	Great Britain
Central Europe	Goths	Germany	Prussia
Eastern Europe	Greece	Bulgaria	Russia
Northern Europe	Norse	Iceland	Sweden

Theoretically, though, that's the world's Antiquity filled out in 6 more as of yet unrevealed Civilizations. Not sure whether that feels close or insurmountable....

I think this is interesting reasoning and definitely is pointing at some obvious additions (Wagadu, Swahili, Goths, Norse, Aztec, Shogunate/Kamakura, Scotland, Morocco, Sweden, Gran Colombia).

But I have a few points of disagreement:

1. I think Hausa are more likely than the Asante, if we are looking at "tying everything together." For one, the likelihood of Rizal getting a Philippines civ (and Bolivar) suggests that Amina may get her own civ as well. For two, the Songhai and Hausa work extremely well as a throughline for modern Nigerian lineage, and the Songhai works doubly to connect Ghana/Wagadou and the Hausa. The Asante are kind of off doing their own thing on the Guinea coast, and while I think their odds are decent, I might anticipate them being paired with the Nok and Benin rather than shoved into a "Malian" path.

2. I do agree that, at least until we get Taino/Arawakan and Muisca civs, Inca will progress into Colombia. However, I am not sure if the Nazca give us enough to work with to build a civ. Whereas, I think Tiwanaku might just provide the devs enough material, as well as cover enough territory to work as a reasonable origin for the Muisca and Mapuche civs, should we get them.

3. TWhile in general I wouldn't be surprised if the SEA civs end up being more of a "choose your own adventure" patchwork compared to more structured regions, I think forcing the Cham to Siam or Khmer to Majapahit is not the most elegant path, especially when we are seeing clear suggestions of the Philippines. The logical "paths" would therefore be Khmer -> Vietnam -> Siam and possibly Cham -> Majapahit -> Philippines. Although I am hoping there may be room for Burma, Brunei, and Papua New Guinea so that we could have even better pathing of Khmer -> Burma -> Siam; Cham -> Vietnam -> Philippines; Papua -> Majapahit -> Brunei. SEA is goals, man.

4. If we only get one civ for each era in Britain, I would predict the Celts would beat out the Anglo Saxons. That way we get soft Irish, Scottish, and English representation in simplest form. Though I could possibly foresee subsequent Anglo-Saxons (antiquity), England (exploration), and Ireland (modern) being added for additional pathways.

5. Exploration era Germany won't be Germany. I'm thinking we will get the Teutons and the Franks, to encourage conceptual overlap with France and Poland-Lithuania (and antiquity Syria? And modern Italy?).

6. Rome -> Norman -> France still sucks, a lot. Celts and Franks above will help a lot, but I think Carthage and Machiavelli are definitely pointing toward Rome -> Venice -> Italy.

7. Also you are missing Assyria.

(and obviously none of this precludes further development on these pathways, such as additional Korean civs, Turko-Mongolic and Iranian civs, Slavic civs, Portugal/Brazil, etc. etc.)

But yes, I am thinking generally along the same lines as you. There are some pretty obvious holes that we would hope to be filled sooner than later given how the map is organized.

 

[czechball]

tbh i have a few ideas of my own:

Illyria -> Serbia -> Yugoslavia

Dacia -> Wallachia -> Romania

Great Moravia (fudging the timeline a bit) -> Bohemia -> Czechoslovakia

Olmecs -> Aztecs -> Mexico

Gokturks -> Seljuks -> Ottomans

Saxons (or some other Germanic civ) -> Brandenburg -> Prussia

Noricum -> Duchy of Austria -> Imperial Austria (could also be Noricum -> Austria -> Austria-Hungary)

Parthia -> Transoxiana -> Khiva

Rome -> Savoy -> Italy

Belgae -> Burgundy -> Belgium

Batavii -> Holland -> Netherlands

 

[RedCourtJester]

tbh i have a few ideas of my own:

Illyria -> Serbia -> Yugoslavia

Dacia -> Wallachia -> Romania

Great Moravia (fudging the timeline a bit) -> Bohemia -> Czechoslovakia

Olmecs -> Aztecs -> Mexico

Gokturks -> Seljuks -> Ottomans

Saxons (or some other Germanic civ) -> Brandenburg -> Prussia

Noricum -> Duchy of Austria -> Imperial Austria (could also be Noricum -> Austria -> Austria-Hungary)

Parthia -> Transoxiana -> Khiva

Rome -> Savoy -> Italy

Belgae -> Burgundy -> Belgium

Batavii -> Holland -> Netherlands

I suspect the Celts/La Tene and Goths are going to vicariously represent most of those regions.

I do think the Gokturks stand a solid chance. I would welcome them, and would hope that they wouldn't preclude Scythia.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I tried to put together a "minimum" model without creating fully new lines and trying to compress whenever possible, and my main takeaway is that looking for paths probably isn't the way to go about things. The intrigue provided by individual choices seems to be the true focus, regardless of whether or not they march towards a "coherent" roster. Nevertheless, here's what I put together with my strict rules (don't put much weight on theoretical nations past Antiquity:

REGION	ANTIQUITY	EXPLORATION	MODERN
North America	Mississipian	Shawnee	America
Central America	Maya	Aztec	Mexico
South America	Nazca	Inca	Columbia
Polynesia	Tu'i Tonga	Hawai'i	Māori
North Africa	Wagadou	Songhai	Asante
East Africa	Aksum	Swahili	Buganda
Arabia	Egypt	Abbasid	Ottoman (though it's actually looking like they'll be Exploration...)
West Asia	Persia	Mongolia	Qajar
China	Han	Ming	Qing

East Asia	Silla	Shōgunate	Meiji
Southeast Asia	Champa	Dai Vet	Siam
Southeast Asia the Second	Khmer	Majapahit	Nepal
India	Maurya	Chola	Mughal
Iberia	Carthage	Spain	Morocco
Western Europe	Rome	Norman	France
British Isles	Anglo-Saxons	Scotland	Great Britain
Central Europe	Goths	Germany	Prussia
Eastern Europe	Greece	Bulgaria	Russia
Northern Europe	Norse	Iceland	Sweden

Theoretically, though, that's the world's Antiquity filled out in 6 more as of yet unrevealed Civilizations. Not sure whether that feels close or insurmountable....

1. I think Hausa are more likely than the Asante, if we are looking at "tying everything together." For one, the likelihood of Rizal getting a Philippines civ (and Bolivar) suggests that Amina may get her own civ as well. For two, the Songhai and Hausa work extremely well as a throughline for modern Nigerian lineage, and the Songhai works doubly to connect Ghana/Wagadou and the Hausa. The Asante are kind of off doing their own thing on the Guinea coast, and while I think their odds are decent, I might anticipate them being paired with the Nok and Benin rather than shoved into a "Malian" path.

I agree that there might be enough civs to have two separate paths of West Africa. One would be the interior Sahel ( Wagadu, Songhai, Hausa) and the other would be the Guinea Coast (Nok, Benin, Asante). I am not sure how doable the Nok is but I guess it wouldn’t be strange to have the Guinea coast start with Antiquity too.

5. Exploration era Germany won't be Germany. I'm thinking we will get the Teutons and the Franks, to encourage conceptual overlap with France and Poland-Lithuania (and antiquity Syria? And modern Italy?).

Considering Prussia is just modern Germany, when it comes to city names, having the Teutonic Order State in Exploration would make sense considering the area that they controlled turned into the Prussian region. It would also give them an excuse to progress to Russia and have Poland in Modern.
Great Britain also only has cities from England so I am expecting at least one of Scotland or Wales to appear in Exploration.

 

[Zaarin]

That said, I think both Phoenicia and Numidia (or other Berber civs) would work great in a hypothetical "pre-antiquity" era that didn't require unique infrastructure and wonders and focused more on nomadism and less "architectural" cultural features (which I think would benefit civs like the Olmec, Nok, Funan, Lapita, etc. etc.). Not sure how compelling such an era could be made, but who knows.

That would be very weird to me. The coastal Levant has been urban since the Neolithic, and the city-states that would become the Phoenician heartland in the Iron Age were already major ports and regional powers in the Bronze Age (albeit overshadowed by Ugarit at the time). TBH already by the Bronze Age semi-nomadic pastoralists like the Kassites, Amorites, and Libu could threaten urban powers, but only to become the new urban powers (and usually temporarily at that).

 

[Ryansinbela]

I agree that there might be enough civs to have two separate paths of West Africa. One would be the interior Sahel ( Wagadu, Songhai, Hausa) and the other would be the Guinea Coast (Nok, Benin, Asante). I am not sure how doable the Nok is but I guess it wouldn’t be strange to have the Guinea coast start with Antiquity too.

Considering Prussia is just modern Germany , when it comes to city names, having the Teutonic Order State in Exploration would make sense.
Great Britain also only has cities from England so I am expecting at least one of Scotland or Wales to appear in Exploration.

Scotland could be based on the Scottish Enlightenment but Exploration Scotland could work

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Scotland could be based on the Scottish Enlightenment but Exploration Scotland could work

Scotland based on the Scottish Enlightenment would basically be like Civ 6 all over again with a mostly British themed England and a mostly British theme Scotland. Besides "Great Britain" is supposed to cover the countries of Scotland and Wales too. If it were up to me, I would add Scottish and Welsh cities to the list and just have Exploration Ireland.

 

[j51]

Some great ideas in this thread.

I wonder if the Gupta would fit better in exploration along with the Sassanians, Byzantium, and Tang (I really want these) as civs that reached that stage “early.”

 

[RedCourtJester]

Scotland based on the Scottish Enlightenment would basically be like Civ 6 all over again with a mostly British themed England and a mostly British theme Scotland. Besides "Great Britain" is supposed to cover the countries of Scotland and Wales too. If it were up to me, I would add Scottish and Welsh cities to the list and just have Exploration Ireland.

Nah, I think, similar to Bulgaria, the Scottish Enlightenment will be a civic track and maybe a civilian unit, but otherwise it will lean very medieval. There's no reason for it to be "Britain" this time around, because we have Britain as a separate civ now. And while I wouldn't mind if a well-designed golf course UI returned, I think a Highland Games/Mod UI would be a much more interesting and fitting spin on effectively the same concept.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nah, I think, similar to Bulgaria, the Scottish Enlightenment will be a civic track and maybe a civilian unit, but otherwise it will lean very medieval. There's no reason for it to be "Britain" this time around, because we have Britain as a separate civ now.

That's my point. The Scottish Enlightenment happened in the18th to 19th century and considering we already have that period on the British Isles covered with Great Britain, I don't see the need for that to be covered in an Exploration Age Scotland.
If they wanted to have the Scottish Enlightenment in the game again it would have been better to have Unique Scientists and Inventors for Great Britain and include figures such as James Watt, Alexander Graham Bell, and Alexander Fleming in the list.