Any guess on what will happen to Erdo-Turkey now that it downed a russian plane?

[Thorgalaeg]

Yeah right... Russia fights ISIS in the region of Latakia... which is located on the Mediterranean shore, whereas ISIS occupies the Eastern desert.
Very convincing.

Aleppo must be a funny place now.

So ISIS is controlling almost all Syrian oil. They must be selling it really cheap, otherwise i dont understand why nobody has finished with this pest yet.

 

[NovaKart]

Just one source here:

https://euobserver.com/enlargement/130735

The article said they're re-opening talks which is part of Turkey's demands in order for cooperation with the migrant issue as well as asking for 3 billion euros in aid. Merkel said she was personally opposed to EU membership for Turkey.

I don't think these talks are going to go anywhere. There's the Cyprus issue alone besides the human rights issues which are just getting worse, not that Turkey has ever had a good human rights record.

 

[HAND]

Turkey is a democracy. At least it is more than Russia is.

Turkish "democracy" is along the same lines as the election victory of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Yes it might have produced a result, but one that undermines democracy itself:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ers-warn-of-human-rights-violations-in-turkey

 

[Marla_Singer]

And ISIS is not the only and exclusive target to fight Islamic extremism and terrorism in Syria.

We go in Syria to neutralize ISIS threat, and Putin told us he was changing his strategy to follow that direction too. He didn't. Turkish speakers nearby Latakia are not a threat. They have no link whatsoever with ISIS.

I know this may sound complicate, but this event between Turkey and Russia has absolutely nothing to do neither with ISIS, nor with Jihadism in general.

 

[Daw]

They must be selling it really cheap

I heard like 19 bucks or something per barrel.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Really? i am going to buy a couple myself.

 

[Daw]

Really? i am going to buy a couple myself.

I guess there's a waiting line of ones like you. Mostly on the Turkish side and they apparently wear shoulder straps of some kind... So, no surprise they don't like Russian planes bombing their incomes.

 

[red_elk]

We go in Syria to neutralize ISIS threat, and Putin told us he was changing his strategy to follow that direction too.

Do you have a link to confirm that Putin changed the strategy and promised to attack ISIS only in Syria and stop targeting other extremist groups?

He didn't. Turkish speakers nearby Latakia are not a threat.

Not a threat to whom?

I know this may sound complicate, but this event between Turkey and Russia has absolutely nothing to do neither with ISIS, nor with Jihadism in general.

Then why you keep mentioning ISIS in this thread? France may attack only ISIS if they like, Russia will target also Al-Qaeda and other terrorists in the region.

 

[HAND]

The article said they're re-opening talks which is part of Turkey's demands in order for cooperation with the migrant issue as well as asking for 3 billion euros in aid. Merkel said she was personally opposed to EU membership for Turkey.

I don't think these talks are going to go anywhere. There's the Cyprus issue alone besides the human rights issues which are just getting worse, not that Turkey has ever had a good human rights record.

Yes, there are a number of reasons for them not to join, my main concern is the EU ruling elite seem to have a lack of proper foresight in my opinion and tend to react after a crisis, rather than preempt a likely potential problem and plan to prevent it.

 

[NovaKart]

Yes, there are a number reasons for them not to join, my main concern is the EU ruling elite seem to have a lack of proper foresight in my opinion and tend to react after a crisis, rather than preempt a likely potential problem and plan to prevent it.

I think this is really just a case of placating Turkey to get them to help on the migrant issue. Letting turkey into the EU would be a bigger headache.

 

[Akka]

Russia has made a habit to provoke with airspace violation and happily helped East Ukrainian rebels (if not doing it themselves) to shoot down Ukrainian airplanes.
Hard to shed any tear for them being on the receiving end for once - though bad luck for the pilot, caught between a rock and a hard place :-/

Russia and Turkey are pretty much foes in the Syria conflict anyhow, and both manage to be pretty disgusting in how they deal with it. They also manage to both have nominal democracy in the act of breaking and be replaced by some cult of personality of the resident near-autocrat.
So meh, let me grab popcorn and don't care about who scores.

 

[Rashiminos]

NATO is going to find a way to blame Russia (rightly or wrongly) without having to do anything escalatory about it.

 

[innonimatu]

Turkmens are not a priority target to fight ISIS.

And bombing ISIS without reinstating a central government in Syria (by defeating all other rebels or forcing them to the table) would defeat ISIS how, exactly?

Did you fail o notice that this group managed to show up and grab a big piece of Syria after the civil war started there and government authority collapsed in large portions of the territory? How to you propose to fix that, are you volunteering for a french expeditionary force to annex (again!) the former colony of Syria or what?

The french already tried the" bomb their government to hell and then forget them", mind you. In Libya. Hos is that working out? I guess you will only notice when some libyan group starts killing people in Paris. So long as they kill only people in other countries they are not a priority, heh? Like these turkmen, like ISIS before it started bothering people in the west, and so on.

So ISIS is controlling almost all Syrian oil. They must be selling it really cheap, otherwise i dont understand why nobody has finished with this pest yet.

It was a useful pest in many people's minds. Still is.

We go in Syria to neutralize ISIS threat, and Putin told us he was changing his strategy to follow that direction too. He didn't. Turkish speakers nearby Latakia are not a threat. They have no link whatsoever with ISIS.

I would really like to see arab (or basque, or turkish, or whatever) speakers concentrating in a french province, take up arms, declare themselves autonomous, start smuggling weapons and people to islamist groups operating in the rest of the french territory, just to see what you would call for in that event. They would not be a threat to me as I don't live in France, so I guess I could condemn any french military move to retake that territory, right?

 

[Akka]

The french already tried the" bomb their government to hell and then forget them", mind you. In Libya. Hos is that working out? I guess you will only notice when some libyan group starts killing people in Paris. So long as they kill only people in other countries they are not a priority, heh? Like these turkmen, like ISIS before it started bothering people in the west, and so on.

Funny how you act all high and mighty but all of what you say also exactly apply to you : "so long as they kill only people in other countries" doesn't seem to bother you when it's about oppressive government like Assad of Ghaddafi

 

[innonimatu]

Funny how you act all high and mighty but all of what you say also exactly apply to you : "so long as they kill only people in other countries" doesn't seem to bother you when it's about oppressive government like Assad of Ghaddafi

I don't believe in "humanitarian wars". Never did, and warned here the supporters of every one of those. And all of those turned into ongoing disasters, the countries targeted now in anarchy and the people there suffering far more that they suffered under the stable governments prior to the war.

You are a warmonger disguised as a "humanist". And worse, you are unable to recognize your mistakes and learn from them.


Marla, this is just one example of the doings of your dear "moderate" rebels in northern Latakia (see the map, it's the area being fought over) who are "not a priority". Do notice that "ISIS" even back in 2013 was happily enslaving the women and children whom it did not just kill on the spot.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/10/...ecutions-indiscriminate-shootings-and-hostage

This report documents serious abuses committed by opposition forces on August 4 during their attack on the villages. Eight survivors and witnesses described how opposition forces executed residents and opened fire on civilians, sometimes killing or attempting to kill entire families who were either in their homes unarmed or fleeing from the attack, and at other times killing adult male family members, and holding the female relatives and children hostage. At the time of writing, according to opposition sources, over 200 civilians, the vast majority of whom are women and children, continue to be held by the Islamic State of Iraq and Sham (ISIS) and Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar, groups that led the opposition offensive.

I suppose that you propose the syrian government sould just do nothing about this, right?

 

[Akka]

Ah yeah, calling you out on your hypocrisy is being a warmonger

 

[Daw]

So meh, let me grab popcorn and don't care about who scores.

Now you'll say nobody let you do what you ask for, right? Beg you, do what you were intending to do, please.

 

[innonimatu]

Ah yeah, calling you out on your hypocrisy is being a warmonger

Where have I ever advocated for war? Feel free to search the whole forum and quote me if you find any instance.

As for the civil wars that do happen, and often happen due to external powers intervening, I do advocate non-intervention in all but the most extreme cases. From all evidence I reviewed on public reporting, no good argument was ever made for intervention on the side of the rebels either Libya or Syria, where the governments did what any government anywhere in the world might be expected to do. Foreign intervention ultimately led to anarchy, and in Syria escalation that is getting really dangerous.

Sure, the governments were dictatorships. But living under dictatorship is still preferable to being murdered by madmen. Proof of that is that people were not fleeing either Libya or Syria before the wars there started. Now they are, millions of them. None of those rebels were any better that the governments they sought to topple. They proved themselves much worse, in fact.

Why do I care even arguing? By your own words you are not even pretending to be a humanitarian now, you are eating popcorn and enjoying seeing other people getting killed.

 

[Rashiminos]

Jesus christ the double standards.

"Ukraine is oppressing Russians!" "They deny Russians rights in Crimea and Donetsk!" Justifies Russia arming insurgent terrorists and invading a sovereign state.

Russia bombs Turkmen in Syria, violates Turkish airspace on multiple occasions, is warned, and then gets a single plane shot down. "Wow Turkey is so embarrassing." "Liability to NATO." "What a troublesome state."

The hatred against Muslims is real. Russia goes to war in the Middle East, bombs people, violates airspace, and expects nothing to happen from it?

Oh they had expectations. That is already factored in before they decide to engage "terrorist" groups like ISIS away from home.

Ah yeah, calling you out on your hypocrisy is being a warmonger

Not sure if serious... or unaware of "whataboutism."

 

[Akka]

Now you'll say nobody let you do what you ask for, right? Beg you, do what you were intending to do, please.

I'm afraid I honestly don't understand what you're saying here.

Not sure if serious... or unaware of "whataboutism."

It's not about whataboutism here, it's about double-standards. I'm not saying "what about", I'm saying his lecture is hypocrital because he's making a rant about one side while completely ignoring the other.