Any ideas to balance Pyre Zombies?

[ShadowOfADoubt]

Pyre zombies seem pretty unbalanced to me. You really can't bring stacks against them because if the enemy has 6+ in a city, you will be decimated no matter how many units you bring. The only way I can think to counter them is to get spell resistance, fire resistance on all of your units, but that's sort of impractical because spell resistance requires combat 3. I don't usually have all my units in a stack at lvl 5. Basically, the Sheaim are the only race that you can't roll over with a huge stack, which seems a bit overpowered.

Maybe get rid of the combat req for spell resistance? Maybe only have the pyre zombie blow up on the attacking square forcing the opponent to spread out their units? Maybe have the explosion only affect some max number of units, or some percentage of units? Any other ideas?

 

[Izmir Stinger]

I don't think they are a problem. The solution for Pyre Zombies isn't to find a way to take the fire damage, it is to avoid it. Strike them from a place of safety and retreat, and only the attacker will take damage. Build some horsemen/horse archers/chariots or give your melee units mobility (no prereqs) so you can charge in from outside the blast radius. Even recon units will work in a pinch. Summoned units are great for this too, as they are the very definition of expendable.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I used to think they were overpowered, but not so much since a counter for them was created: Destroy Undead. The Life II spell can now (as I've long suggested it should) deal a lethal amount of damage to undead units, and when a Pyre Zombie is killed in this was it does not get a chance to explode. Three or Four usages of Destroy Undead can usually eliminate any size stack of Pyre Zombies.

 

[Sarisin]

There is a thread on dealing with them in the Strategy Forum.

As mentioned, I found building lots of Chariots worked as they had the movement pts. and could attack and move away from the subsequent explosions. This was before the Destroy Undead spell was enhanced.

One thing I definitely learned as I was playing as the Luchiurp...you don't fight them with Wood Golems!

 

[Tarquelne]

I didn't read past the title, sorry if this method has already been mentioned:

To prevent inefficient zombie lurch I think the most important thing is cutting off the hands. If you've got quality steel use steel strips to bind a sword to one arm. Metal (anything workable will do) rods with weights fitted on the end are driven into the other arm as a counterweight. If you don't have good steel just iron rods/weights on each arm as weapons. If you lack even *that* well tarred leather bindings can fix something to your zombie's arms. But it'd only last for one battle, say. You're probably better off with an unbalanced zombie.

As I say, I think the procedure above is the important part. Use that and any further imbalance can be easily handled via the usual stone shims in the feet.

 

[citizenalex]

Pyre zombies seem pretty unbalanced to me. You really can't bring stacks against them because if the enemy has 6+ in a city, you will be decimated no matter how many units you bring. The only way I can think to counter them is to get spell resistance

Actually, you're forgetting the -20% collateral damage you get with the evasion promo, which is pretty accessible for cavalry and siege units (what else are you going to build that stack with, anyways?)

I rarely see the AI overdo it with the zombies even when you're at war with Sheaim, no matter what difficulty level you have. Plus, you have to think that playing them sucks until the AC is high...pyre zombies are that saving grace.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Evasion promotion? There is no such thing.

Do you mean Drill? Drill 3 and 4 are the only promotion in FfH that protect against collateral damage.


However, that doesn't matter in the case of Pyre Zombies at all, as their explosions are handled in python.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

The fact the Sheaim get no other melee unit up the metal branch does not seem unblanced to you?
The fact that Summoner just got nerfed, even reducing the power of the Sheaim does not seem unbalanced to you?
Instead of wanting to reduce the power of something, just find ways to beat it. It is doable for everything that some people find "unbalanced" in any civ. It appears that every unique building, unit or ability for every civ has been labeled as "unbalanced" or "overpowered" by someone, at some point.
The sad thing is that it is even enough to mention it to get Kael thinking that it should be nerfed.

EDIT: [Hint] There is a promotion called "Magic resistance" that leads to a further promotion called "Fire Resistance" [/Hint]

 

[MiKa523]

[Hint] Read his whole post [/Hint]

I would like to know the reason why the combat 3 requirement for Magic resistance isn't dropped or at least reduced to combat 1, since some ppl already suggested this up until now.

 

[Demus]

magic resistance is a viable way to take down pyre zombie stacks by the way. You don't need an entire stack of magic resistant units, just a few strong units (and every civ has at least one strong unit with plenty of exp to spend ). Just grab magic resistance + fire resistance along with drill 4, and you should be pretty much immume to pyre zombies (obviously works better with a high str. hero, in my last encounter i used magnadine)

other than that, high movement stacks and destroy undead are decent counters

 

[Thunder_Gr]

[Hint] Read his whole post [/Hint]

I would like to know the reason why the combat 3 requirement for Magic resistance isn't dropped or at least reduced to combat 1, since some ppl already suggested this up until now.

OK, I may have deserved that
I did read the post, missed that for a reason , but the argument is not really sound. It is not such a difficult thing to have a unit to level 4 to get the magic resistance, if this is what is your problem. You just align your civics and you can easily go high enough, then kill a few barbs and get to magic resistance.

If it was made a lvl 1(I had also suggested this once in a thread), it would make magic damaging units worthless. So, I tend to think it is rightfully placed at combat III as is Guardsman.

 

[MiKa523]

Yeah, you are probably right that there needs to be a balance between magic damage and magic resistance, but magic resistance is only useful for certain situations and there are lot more fancy promotions waiting after combat 1, which means at least for me that I wouldn't upgrade all combat 1 units to MR just because I can.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Yeah, you are probably right that there needs to be a balance between magic damage and magic resistance, but magic resistance is only useful for certain situations and there are lot more fancy promotions waiting after combat 1, which means at least for me that I wouldn't upgrade all combat 1 units to MR just because I can.

Except, of course, if you wanted to go and wipe out the Sheaim off the map, and you've had problems . Many barbs have a sort of elemental damage as do summons and fireballs. I do not have any problems with dealing with pyre zombies even without magic resistance, but those who have, can get the promotion and be done with it.

 

[Charlie_B]

I didn't read past the title, sorry if this method has already been mentioned:

To prevent inefficient zombie lurch I think the most important thing is cutting off the hands. If you've got quality steel use steel strips to bind a sword to one arm. Metal (anything workable will do) rods with weights fitted on the end are driven into the other arm as a counterweight. If you don't have good steel just iron rods/weights on each arm as weapons. If you lack even *that* well tarred leather bindings can fix something to your zombie's arms. But it'd only last for one battle, say. You're probably better off with an unbalanced zombie.

As I say, I think the procedure above is the important part. Use that and any further imbalance can be easily handled via the usual stone shims in the feet.

Ahha! I see you've got a copy of Necromancy for Dummies too?

 

[Grey Fox]

The ability for Pyre Zombies to kill with their explosion is a bit strong.

Life II is not a valid counter to Pyre Zombies since when Sheaim can attack you with a Pyre Zombie stack you might have Archers.

For one thing, Pyre Zombies don't require a Training Yard, for the 2nd they cost the same as regular Axemen.

 

[reverend oats]

Damage cap!

 

[MiKa523]

..and that's why I'd rather see less requirement for Magic Resistance
All those nerfs for magic, damage caps in most cases as far as I can tell, while Magic Resistance and especially the following resistance promotions are rarely used by players according to my poll from some month ago.
Even when Thunder has a point, make it at least a combat 2 requirement.

Leave Magic alone, Buff the Resistance Promotions! Make them more usefull/appealing by easier access!

 

[mahazel]

I think PZ are unbalanced. They should have +1 fire affinity!

 

[Senethro]

Damage cap!

Damage the top 6 units in a stack to a maximum of 50%! (at which hopefully the stack will shuffle somewhat)

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Seriously, another pyre zombie thread? Haven't these been done to death and back? Units that are able to move 3 tiles in one turn> stack of pyre zombies. Then they added the destroy undead spell for those that prefer a less micromanagement intensive approach. Stack busting spells in general work wonders too because explosion damage is directly proportional to zombie health/power. In fact, just about anything outside melee units with no roads/mobility promotions will work if used properly. A failure to do so implies a failure on the part of the player, not a balance issue.