Any viable alternatives to NC start?

FaceUnderMask

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To be short, I'd been playing a game yesterday with Japan, and I got stuck very close to mongols. Well, I decided to go for a common NC start. But unfortunately mongols didn't bothered with such a thing as a NC start, and when I finished my NC, he already had 3 cities and was nearly bordering me. So I was left very little space to expand.

Obliviously I should have expanded before he did. What would you have done?

Sorry for bad english.
 
Actually, in Civ 5, your still in decent shape.
Beeline to Iron Working if you don't already have that tech to find out where the Iron is.

If Iron is in your territory, just build 3 Swords and send your entire army at his closet city.

If there's no iron in your territory though; ally with a city state that does, and build the army then, while in the mean time developing your capital.
 
and if you are sure you will have to fight him, you could still his workers as soon as possible to hurt his development.
 
A Liberty rapid expansion strategy is a viable alternative to the NC start depending on map and difficulty. Use free/cheap settlers and free/hardworking workers to settle unique luxuries and block off the map. Since base beakers are based on population, you can keep up your science rate somewhat just from expanding. New cities with monuments and libraries contribute to science and culture. As a side bonus, Meritocracy is there for great flexibility with the great person.
 
In this situation, you're so very likely to end up fighting the Mongols that you have to plan for it.

OK you've gone NC first and he's expanded near you. Use that tech to Samurai rush him and if you can't take his cities yet, take a couple of his workers, kills some of his soldiers and perhaps you get him to offer a good peace deal. Take the money and build up your military further during those 10 turns.

I usually play Immortal Small Pangaea and this situation is not uncommon and you have to plan to fight.
 
Thank you all for your advices, but I expected somewhat different.

I already figured out that I should have gone rapid expansion with Liberty, so what I wanted is a step-by-step build and reseach order variations.

I can't comprehend how Honor/Warrior rush will be successful above Noble.

Samurai rush is what I actually did. Ended screwing it up though.
 
Early rushing is reliably successful up to immortal.

I don't know about Deity, which I don't play anymore because it's a pain-in-the ass, unfun mode where you're lucky to get one city or two.

Early rushes are best done on epic or marathon, and not just with warriors.

If you're playing as India (probably the easiest rush civ imo), go right for War Elephants. On marathon, your initial warrior + scout (first build) can take out your nearest city state while gaining huge amounts of promotions while the War Elephants come online - once you have 2 war elephants, plus your warrior/scout, you should be able to take over your entire continent without too much difficulty.

Playing as a standard civ, tech archery first. One archer, one scout, and one warrior will reliably take out anything before walls go up if your micro is decent on marathon - focus on healing promotions for both the scout and warrior, and don't lose units. It becomes easy once you get two archers.

You should be able to take over your entire continent with 2 warriors, 2 archers + a scout on marathon. Once the higher tier promotions kick in, even walls or higher tech units (e.g. swordsmen) shouldn't be able to stop you.

EDIT: When I rush I typically play marathon. I think for a warmonger, marathon is pretty much like lowering the difficulty setting by 1.5 in terms of how difficult things are to pull off.
 
I really ought to start trying Civ V at higher difficulties without wonder spam, but theres no need to yet if I'm enjoying playing it as I am.

With Civ IV, I played it for years wonderspamming before trying out some Immortal tactics and victories.

Yea, as Kevin said Diety is purely unfun, theres challenging, fun an rewarding up to around Emperor level, and then theres just crazy unfun 'lets just make the AI ridiculously IMBA for the fun of it' Immortal+ levels.

And yea, theres a viable alternative to NC first - Wonderspam. Its the most fun way of playing Civ games for a lot of people, I am a wonder whore and I will bend over backwards for my epic pyramids in every game I play!

Well, actually no, that might end up painfully deadly :(

I tried playing Babylon after the policy changes for the double academy start, but I found it too unfun compared to wonderspam, though I might try it out again.
 
Thank you all for your advices, but I expected somewhat different.

I already figured out that I should have gone rapid expansion with Liberty, so what I wanted is a step-by-step build and reseach order variations.

I can't comprehend how Honor/Warrior rush will be successful above Noble.

Samurai rush is what I actually did. Ended screwing it up though.

Rapid Expansion via Liberty is fairly straightforward. I am going to assume here that you don't get any Culture ruins, El Dorado gold, or any other large early benefit. I am also going to assume that your map gives you enough elbow room to settle 7+ cities with aggressive blocking (if not, you need to attack early or turtle up for a renaissance war).

REXing is unit-intensive in Civ V. You will be building units and not wonders or many buildings. The goal is to block the AI and claim the good city site early, while dealing with the diplomatic repurcussions of settling near your opponents. You want to settle a LOT ... if you just settle four cities, you're better off with Tradition. Liberty shines with lots of cities. The key is to keep up your military and get as many unique happiness resources as possible, understanding that some of your blocking cities may be suboptimally located for strategic reasons.

Social Policies: Take all of Liberty, excepting only Republic, which may possibly be worth taking depending on the land you have (+1 hammer per city sounds lame, but consider that in the early game, this is like a global +10-20% production bonus). When you take Meritocracy, try to get the most bang for your buck. Since you are REXing, a settled Great Engineer will do wonders to improve your capital's hammer output, although rush-building a wonder is tempting (many take the Great Library to deny it to the AI, get the +1 culture per turn, and still get the free tech (Civil Service?) that a great scientist would have granted). I have also taken a great merchant and done a trade mission to secure the alliance of a friendly maritime or cultural city-state that has a luxury I need so I can keep expanding. For the really land-grabby, you can take a great artist and culture bomb a nearby city state to take its precious unique resources away and give them to you. Just remember that every happiness resource you get essentially lets you settle another city.

Tech order: Pottery, relevant happiness resource techs, writing, philosophy (temples and research agreements), a few relevant military techs (archery, BW, HBR, IW), construction (for coliseums and lumbermills)

Build order: scout, monument, granary, worker, warrior, settler (repeat last three until happiness causes problems)

New Cities generally get a monument and granary first. You want every city to have a warrior garrison at the beginning, when barbarians are an issue. Your city ranged attack and warrior will be able to deal with barbs. The bigger threat is the AI you just blocked. Eventually they will come at you with whatever they have on hand ... several warriors, possibly a spearman, an archer or two, and a horse or two.

Use your cash to buy tiles to block off the AI. I can hear many of the Civfanatics playerbase screaming as they read this. Do it anyway. You are trying to secure territory for yourself to expand into. Hook up your cities with roads, using as few road tiles as possible to save on maintenance. Research agreements are great but not the centerpiece of this strategy. You are trying to maximize your land grab here.

Happiness buildings will become necessary as your cities start to grow vertically. If available, build Circuses where you can; although they only grant +2 happiness, they cost no maintenance. The other happiness buildings will eventually need to be built as well.

Eventually, you will have to go outside your empire for more happiness -- trade with AI civs, alliances with City-States, and Piety and/or Commerce are likely choices. Piety, in particular, has nice synergy with a REX strtategy, as Theocracy grants a 25% unhappiness reduction for all settled (i.e. non-conquered) cities. Thus, if you have eight equally sized cities, you are getting two for free, happiness-wise. This lets you settle two more cities! Depending on your map and gold situation, Patronage can give you great culture, food, and resource gains in exchange for substantial regular gold infusions.

I hope this helps. REXing is great fun but you have to stay with it and remain focused on new city expansion and happiness. Once the easily-settled land is gone, you will find yourself with a huge population and resource advantage and in great position for any of the non-cultural victories.
 
Rapid Expansion via Liberty is fairly straightforward. I am going to assume here that you don't get any Culture ruins, El Dorado gold, or any other large early benefit. I am also going to assume that your map gives you enough elbow room to settle 7+ cities with aggressive blocking (if not, you need to attack early or turtle up for a renaissance war).

REXing is unit-intensive in Civ V. You will be building units and not wonders or many buildings. The goal is to block the AI and claim the good city site early, while dealing with the diplomatic repurcussions of settling near your opponents. You want to settle a LOT ... if you just settle four cities, you're better off with Tradition. Liberty shines with lots of cities. The key is to keep up your military and get as many unique happiness resources as possible, understanding that some of your blocking cities may be suboptimally located for strategic reasons.

Social Policies: Take all of Liberty, excepting only Republic, which may possibly be worth taking depending on the land you have (+1 hammer per city sounds lame, but consider that in the early game, this is like a global +10-20% production bonus). When you take Meritocracy, try to get the most bang for your buck. Since you are REXing, a settled Great Engineer will do wonders to improve your capital's hammer output, although rush-building a wonder is tempting (many take the Great Library to deny it to the AI, get the +1 culture per turn, and still get the free tech (Civil Service?) that a great scientist would have granted). I have also taken a great merchant and done a trade mission to secure the alliance of a friendly maritime or cultural city-state that has a luxury I need so I can keep expanding. For the really land-grabby, you can take a great artist and culture bomb a nearby city state to take its precious unique resources away and give them to you. Just remember that every happiness resource you get essentially lets you settle another city.

Tech order: Pottery, relevant happiness resource techs, writing, philosophy (temples and research agreements), a few relevant military techs (archery, BW, HBR, IW), construction (for coliseums and lumbermills)

Build order: scout, monument, granary, worker, warrior, settler (repeat last three until happiness causes problems)

New Cities generally get a monument and granary first. You want every city to have a warrior garrison at the beginning, when barbarians are an issue. Your city ranged attack and warrior will be able to deal with barbs. The bigger threat is the AI you just blocked. Eventually they will come at you with whatever they have on hand ... several warriors, possibly a spearman, an archer or two, and a horse or two.

Use your cash to buy tiles to block off the AI. I can hear many of the Civfanatics playerbase screaming as they read this. Do it anyway. You are trying to secure territory for yourself to expand into. Hook up your cities with roads, using as few road tiles as possible to save on maintenance. Research agreements are great but not the centerpiece of this strategy. You are trying to maximize your land grab here.

Happiness buildings will become necessary as your cities start to grow vertically. If available, build Circuses where you can; although they only grant +2 happiness, they cost no maintenance. The other happiness buildings will eventually need to be built as well.

Eventually, you will have to go outside your empire for more happiness -- trade with AI civs, alliances with City-States, and Piety and/or Commerce are likely choices. Piety, in particular, has nice synergy with a REX strtategy, as Theocracy grants a 25% unhappiness reduction for all settled (i.e. non-conquered) cities. Thus, if you have eight equally sized cities, you are getting two for free, happiness-wise. This lets you settle two more cities! Depending on your map and gold situation, Patronage can give you great culture, food, and resource gains in exchange for substantial regular gold infusions.

I hope this helps. REXing is great fun but you have to stay with it and remain focused on new city expansion and happiness. Once the easily-settled land is gone, you will find yourself with a huge population and resource advantage and in great position for any of the non-cultural victories.

Excellent advice. I've been doing this a lot on immortal recently, and it does work well, especially as France or Songhai for the crazy culture bonuses.

One word however, if you follow this on immortal or deity, you WILL be declared on by at least one civ by around turn 50-60. It seems expanding to more than 3 cities on that difficulty early garentees wars, which can destroy you or at least ruin you economic wise, due to the ai building 'lots' of units and throwing them all at you. You can also get gang DOWed as the declaring civ often bribes others to help.
 
Piety, in particular, has nice synergy with a REX strtategy, as Theocracy grants a 25% unhappiness reduction for all settled (i.e. non-conquered) cities.

It also works for puppets, and annexed cities with a courthouse.
 
I don't know about Deity, which I don't play anymore because it's a pain-in-the ass, unfun mode where you're lucky to get one city or two.

On Deity you have to get a tech advantage, upgrade, then rush, and you'd better use a civ that's good at whatever you want to do. There are three major rush types: Knight, Steel and Rifle. Babylon is the only civ that can reliably pull off an early Rifle rush; I have a thread about it somewhere around here.

If you want to rush with Knights, I strongly recommend that you take Songhai or Mongolia. Their UUs are city-eating beasts. With Steel, I'd advise taking either Babylon for speed, China for the GGs, or a civ with a relevant UU. (Monty, Hiawatha or Nobunaga)

You can still rush with Horses on Deity if you know what you're doing. It's very easy with Alex, because CCs can stand out of range of city/Archer shots and melee retaliation, hit a city through a single open tile, and retreat back out of range all in the same turn. Anyone else's Horses are exposed to counterattacks, which makes life difficult now that cities pummel Horses.

If you're rushing at the right time with the right civs, playing warmonger on Deity can still be fun. Since everyone will hate you, it's essential that you generate an advantage swiftly. If you don't, it will turn out like a bad game of Left 4 Dead.
 
I have been enjoying REX games lately as well, there is no doubt it's a viable alternative to NC start, at least up to emperor as far as I know. I agree with everyone saying Liberty to Piety has great synergy.

Personally I like to REX madly early on, grabbing at least 7-8 cities (all luxuries or riverside cities) and once all the good land is settled, stop REXing and focus on vertical growth. If you get civil service and theocracy right around this time you should be set up for a great period of growth in your river cities. The goal is to establish several large, high-population, productive river cities. These will form the mainstay of your economy through the entire game. From meritocracy I like to either build the pyramids (faster workers is better the more land you have, also gives an engineer point) or a manufactury in the capital for fast settler/worker/military pumping. Scientists are better for an early rush strategy (most likely bulbing steel) or NC Start (academy).

Don't worry if you fall behind 10-15% in science at first, if you play it right you will catch up and blow past the AIs (for me usually around the industrial age). Public schools are key for this if you have gone vertical.

Patronage can also be quite handy with the liberty opening, because you should be able to establish a very strong Gold economy with all those large cities and their trade routes. Anyone with a luxury you don't have is fair game, but cultural are probably the best since you are sacrificing policies for all that growth. Maritimes are also great, but you have to be careful with your happiness. I will generally only get maritimes after theocracy. Scholasticism can also be a HUGE boost to science.

Later in the game Order is pretty useful, although if you don't have strong culture it will take a while to get all the way down to the best policy (communism). After communism I'll generally stop building any culture buildings as the remaining policies are not terribly useful. Commerce maybe for cheaper rush buying.
 
On Deity you have to get a tech advantage, upgrade, then rush, and you'd better use a civ that's good at whatever you want to do. There are three major rush types: Knight, Steel and Rifle.

In the early turns you can attack with 4-6 swords(with an upgraded scout if lucky) around 1500 bc before they get too much units(standard speed or quick speed). The biggest problem is about trades. If everyone hate you because you attacked a neighbor, it's a lot harder to get gold you want from the first batch of luxuries, letting you less chances to get enough RAs and/or cs allies. And no selling borders too.

But i managed to kill a civ a couple of times before longswords. Continents are surely most suited than pangea for this approach.
 
On Deity you have to get a tech advantage, upgrade, then rush, and you'd better use a civ that's good at whatever you want to do. There are three major rush types: Knight, Steel and Rifle. Babylon is the only civ that can reliably pull off an early Rifle rush; I have a thread about it somewhere around here.

If you want to rush with Knights, I strongly recommend that you take Songhai or Mongolia. Their UUs are city-eating beasts. With Steel, I'd advise taking either Babylon for speed, China for the GGs, or a civ with a relevant UU. (Monty, Hiawatha or Nobunaga)

You can still rush with Horses on Deity if you know what you're doing. It's very easy with Alex, because CCs can stand out of range of city/Archer shots and melee retaliation, hit a city through a single open tile, and retreat back out of range all in the same turn. Anyone else's Horses are exposed to counterattacks, which makes life difficult now that cities pummel Horses.

If you're rushing at the right time with the right civs, playing warmonger on Deity can still be fun. Since everyone will hate you, it's essential that you generate an advantage swiftly. If you don't, it will turn out like a bad game of Left 4 Dead.

Do you mean any civ apart from babylon, greece, songhai, mongolia, Monty, Hiawatha or Nobunaga will be unable to get a win on deity without being peaceful?
 
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