Any way to solve the AI self-destructing under Communism?!

[DrJambo]

Anyone any ideas as to how to remedy this situation where the AI just pop-rushes it cities until they're all pop size 1 entertainers?

So far i have several ways:

1. reduce penalties for pop-rushing to <10 turns.
2. change Communism from using sacrificing to hurry production to a money-based hurry production.
3. increasing the number of shields each pop-sacrifice gives.

Any other ways?

Cheers.

 

[BillChin]

Originally posted by =DOCTOR=
1. reduce penalties for pop-rushing to <10 turns.
2. change Communism from using sacrificing to hurry production to a money-based hurry production.
3. increasing the number of shields each pop-sacrifice gives.

Of those only #2 seems reasonable. #1 and #3 make the game too easy for the human player.

Another simple fix is to change the AI code so that is does not pop rush or draft once a city reaches a certain happiness level. IF ... THEN ... ELSE is basic stuff and all that is needed. Finding a good level to stop may take a bit of tweaking, but just about anything is better than the current suicidal AI that pop rushes and drafts cities with 12 citizens down to 1.

My first approximation for a good level is when half the city is entertainers, cut off drafting and pop rushing.

 

[loki]

patch back to 1.16 ?

loki

 

[Mapache]

Drafting is more problematic than pop-rushing. I reduced draft unhappiness to 10 turns which is also more realistic. Drafting is a habit of many democratic countries and is liked by the people.
Pop-Rushing should stay at 40.

 

[Zachriel]

Most of the players who have seen this problem are trying to dominate a Communist Civilizaton. They have indicated a willingness to raze the cities if necessary to continue your campaign of domination.

Which is worse? The player who drafts to defend his country, or the invader who is willing to destroy entire cities to further his ambition?

Anyway, I'm sure the Communist propaganda machine is busy making sure the citizenry knows about the intentions of the invading armies, and their propensity to slaughter innocent civilians. So they draft, or capitulate. They really have no choice.

 

[Mr Spice]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Which is worse? The player who drafts to defend his country, or the invader who is willing to destroy entire cities to further his ambition?

I would prefer to keep the moral aspects out of this - it is a game after all. IMHO we should focus on making the game challenging instead. Enemy civs with cities inhabited only by entertainers are poor opponents, be they moral superiour or not.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Mr Spice


I would prefer to keep the moral aspects out of this - it is a game after all. IMHO we should focus on making the game challenging instead. Enemy civs with cities inhabited only by entertainers are poor opponents, be they moral superiour or not.

probably they are trying something along the lines of the famous deadly joke from the Flying Circus

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Mr Spice


I would prefer to keep the moral aspects out of this - it is a game after all. IMHO we should focus on making the game challenging instead. Enemy civs with cities inhabited only by entertainers are poor opponents, be they moral superiour or not.

I think a good mix of both would be best. Like Zach, I rationalize things like this, so they do not bother me as much, but sometimes they make the game less challenging.

 

[Selous]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Most of the players who have seen this problem are trying to dominate a Communist Civilizaton. They have indicated a willingness to raze the cities if necessary to continue your campaign of domination.

Which is worse? The player who drafts to defend his country, or the invader who is willing to destroy entire cities to further his ambition?

Anyway, I'm sure the Communist propaganda machine is busy making sure the citizenry knows about the intentions of the invading armies, and their propensity to slaughter innocent civilians. So they draft, or capitulate. They really have no choice.

but the only reason is is much more profitable is 1) the player that DIDNT do the drafting/pop rushing still get the unhappyness and 2) the citys are pretty stuffed for the next few hundred year/turns .... so it makes it VERY worth while to kill all the population and put your own in there .... which are MUCH more resistant to culture flips ... there really isnt much of a choise unless u can railroad the computer and blitzkreig them in a few turns

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Selous
but the only reason is is much more profitable is 1) the player that DIDNT do the drafting/pop rushing still get the unhappyness and 2) the citys are pretty stuffed for the next few hundred year/turns .... so it makes it VERY worth while to kill all the population and put your own in there .... which are MUCH more resistant to culture flips ... there really isnt much of a choise unless u can railroad the computer and blitzkreig them in a few turns

Perhaps they don't want to be conquered. Napoleon "conquered" Moscow, but the city was empty except for the arsonists.

 

[DrJambo]

I couldn't give a blinking fried chipolata whether its morally or historically correct or not....


..the point is, it's too bloody easy if the enemy AI is a Communist because they starve their major production cities to size 1 entertainers. This makes their cities useless at producing any effective countermeasures to the human player's assault (1 entertainer trying to produce a tank takes...err...100 turns!).

Net result is an end game which is too easy, boring and unchallenging

If they go to Monarchy when at war as the GErmans tend to do...then, it's a different story...

 

[chiefpaco]

Realistic points aside, it is an exploit to park 1 Infantry unit outside the AIs city & watch the pop go down each turn. They don't even have to be under Communism to waste their city away by the draft.

That's a clear exploit. However, there are other cases which hurt the AI since they do the same thing even when you're not attacking but spending turns bombarding or pillaging.

Whether or not the city is so unhappy or razed after you take it is independent of the AI hurting its own chances of survival.

I think it's got to be a code change. Perhaps the draft option should be removed for a city with a certain % of angry drafters. All your options above might "band-aid" the situation & might help solve the AI's problems as a result of the drafting, but also really help the human player so the advantage over the AI remains.

Did something change to make this more apparent in 1.17f? It couldn't just be the turns increased?

 

[brody]

I agree. I don't mind it a whole lot, but when I'm fighting a war and suddenly the enemy (who should be a tough challenge) is not making any more units because all their cities' production is gone, THAT is annoying. I don't exploit, and I don't get my units too close to the enemy cities until I'm ready to attack. But during a war, the AI doesn't seem to mind destroying many of its cities to "defend" itself. Once you declare peace, you can rest assured that opponent is out of the game because half his towns are worthless for a long time.

I think pop-rushing shouldn't be doable in an unhappy city. The citizens should revolt and refuse to do the work even though you're whipping them to death. And drafting shouldn't be that big a deal. If you draft all the time, yeah it'll piss off people, but in the name of freedom (especially in a democracy/republic), people shouldn't mind it much at all. I say that shouldn't be more than 5 turns of unhappiness, though in reality it should also be based on current happiness. If the town is happy, drafting adds 1 unhappy face for 5 turns. If they're just content, maybe 2 unhappy faces for 5 turns. If they're already unhappy, 3 unhappy faces for 10 turns, etc. And again, a really angry city won't fight its ruler's wars, and shouldn't be draftable.

I think that 1.17 makes the problem worse, but I'd imagine it was around since before the patch.

 

[Cavalry]

This is a grave problem. Example: I am fighting the Egyptians, I put a few tanks(just like 2-3) next to a city, that is size 27. Next turn it is about size 10. The CPU not only drafts to its utmost ability it will hurry production of mech infantry or other defense units regardless of the dire consquences.


I think once I dropped a size 30 city to size 1. And all that huge amounts of defense doesn't mean a thing now. I just simply took another city, and left that one for dead, or for later razing.

The CPU doesn't get "it" what is easy to defend? A size 15 city with 15 mech infantry or a size 4 with 17 mech infantry? Answer the 15 with 15 if the rest are conscripts. Each citizen grants some defense bonus to the city, so it isn't like they are really prolonging death that effectivley.

You can easyily cause the computer to destory it's self. Sometimes it will throw everything it can(hurrying at many cities) to defend the city. *Even* if this will cause *eons * of rage/civil disdorder at most cities. The result? About 3 extra conscripts with an occasional regular.

There is a term I coined for this: Terminal rage. The symptons: A city that has 85% saying "They won't forgot the cruel opression you have born upon them". The city shrinks and withers and eventually just disappears or stay stuck at size 1, which at that point you ditch it by building a worker, unless it has a Wonder then you keep it.

 

[Cavalry]

An interesting note: The CPUs rip the living guts out of each other when fighting.

 

[Mapache]

Originally posted by Cavalry
This is a grave problem. Example: I am fighting the Egyptians, I put a few tanks(just like 2-3) next to a city, that is size 27. Next turn it is about size 10

Another problem is also that the A.I. uses drafted Riflemen/Infantry for attack.

@Zachriel
I usually don't raze. Sometimes I have to. The problem we're talking about in this thread isn't related to razing. If you raze and feel guilty it's OK with me, though

 

[Zachriel]

How often does this phenomena occur? I have yet to see it, and I have conquered on a global level many times.

 

[D. Boon's Ghost]

I wish this AI trait was a phenomena, actually. Every time I have played, the AI whips/drafts itself into a corner (on Regent).
Zachriel, I know you play at the higher difficulty levels, but I am amazed you have not come across this.

 

[Mapache]

Originally posted by Zachriel
How often does this phenomena occur? I have yet to see it, and I have conquered on a global level many times.

You mean the invading conscript Riflemen? Well, it happens when attacking A.I. cities in the Industrial Era. Sometimes they are stacked, other times they beeline. It looked like they were heading for my capital.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by D. Boon's Ghost
I wish this AI trait was a phenomena, actually. Every time I have played, the AI whips/drafts itself into a corner (on Regent).
Zachriel, I know you play at the higher difficulty levels, but I am amazed you have not come across this.

I feel like such as noob!