Any way to survive this start?

[crouchy]

I started a new game last night as Persia. King difficulty.

It took me 3 turns to settle the first city, as there was an excellent settlement location nearby with hills, mountains and a river beside it.

After sending out my scout, I found that Trajan (Rome) was ~15/20 tiles away from my capital. I knew as soon as I found him this was going to be a problem. I built a Slinger, but didn't focus purely on military units as I didn't want to be left behind production wise. Maybe this was a mistake.

Basically, within 40/50 turns he had conquered my capital and I was pretty much dead and buried. He outnumbered me militarily, there was no way I was fighting him off.

Is this a situation you can just put down to getting a bit unlucky with the neighbouring Civ being so close, and being someone who's relatively aggressive?

I tried reloading the save and tried to pre-empt his attack on me by attacking Rome, but again his military was much stronger and he repelled my attack easily and I was pretty much dead and buried at this point as well.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

40/50 turns is a long time. It seems you had plenty of time to prepare by building up your military early but you didn't. As soon as you knew Rome was close, you should have focused entirely on building military units first and getting the tech to city walls as soon as possible. So yeah, I think you made a big mistake of ignoring your military in the early game.

 

[Siptah]

Turn numbers indicate nothing without game speed info.

If you feel like a neighbor is a threat, build three slingers early and research archery. With 3 archers, you can (sadly) hold off any invasion if you position them good - even on the highest difficulties. After the first wave, there is often not much more danger and you can conquer the enemy instead. Having no or weak military makes wars more likely by the way.

 

[gcampono]

Another possibility is to build an extra warrior or two and fortify in terrain with defensive bonuses. With the support of 1-2 slingers that you upgrade to archers you should be able to hold off his attacks.

 

[kryat]

Using the policy card for bonus production to melee and ranged units is pretty critical in situations where you feel threatened. Bee-lining archery helps significantly too. Lastly, make sure to use the terrain to your advantage as much as you can. Fortified units get +6 combat strength after a few turns, and if they’re on the opposite side of a river in hilly woods, they’re nearly impossible to kill without ranged units (and even then they might be difficult to take out if you’re healing in your own terrain).

If you can settle cities on a coast, they can’t put your city under siege without boats. If you settle on a river, they need units on all sides of the river for seige. If you settle in a lake, there’s slim to no chance they can put you under seige. If your city is on a hill, they face a combat penalty for assaulting, especially if they have to go over a river as well. Hills also allow archers and wall defenses full attack visibility over obstacles.

 

[Siptah]

In addition to tactics: if you see more than one enemy unit near one of your cities in the earlier game, prepare for war. That often gives you 3-5 extra turns.

 

[crouchy]

Thanks all for the info!

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I believe your strongest initial build order when under threat from a nearby neighbour is Builder, Warrior, Warrior, Slinger if you have 3 Warriors alive(otherwise another Warrior if you lost one), Warrior, Slinger, Slinger. Use gold to buy a Settler as soon as the coast is clear to move one safely.

The reason you want the Builder first is to improve a tile or two so that your cities' production is boosted or you have a luxury to trade away for early gold. In a real emergency, you can also use the Builder's last charge to chop in an additional unit, but it's better if you can use it to improve three tiles for the Craftsmenship boost. The early you get to Political Philosophy, the sooner you're safe from attack.

Slinger first is a weak opening move compared to extra Warriors. Flank one Warrior on either side of your city and the AI can't put you under siege without attacking them. Rotate damaged Warriors into and out of the city centre and you may be able to take a lot of damage before you lose a unit.

 

[crouchy]

Did I make a mistake waiting for 3 turns to settle? In terms of balance between getting to a more preferable tile, vs turns without producing anything, what do people usually consider acceptable?

 

[Siptah]

Did I make a mistake waiting for 3 turns to settle? In terms of balance between getting to a more preferable tile, vs turns without producing anything, what do people usually consider acceptable?

In 90% of my games, I settle in the first turn. The other 10% in the second turn.

 

[ezzlar]

If you can settle cities on a coast, they can’t put your city under siege without boats. If you settle on a river, they need units on all sides of the river for seige. If you settle in a lake, there’s slim to no chance they can put you under seige. If your city is on a hill, they face a combat penalty for assaulting, especially if they have to go over a river as well. Hills also allow archers and wall defenses full attack visibility over obstacles.

"We were evicted from our hole in the ground; WE HAD TO GO AND LIVE IN A LAKE!"

 

[kryat]

"We were evicted from our hole in the ground; WE HAD TO GO AND LIVE IN A LAKE!"

Why a lake is a defense against a seige and not a barrier adding to a seige (like a mountain) is beyond me. Sure you have fresh water (an acquaduct or river should also count if this was the case), but what will you eat? Especially on the TSL map with the Great Salt Lake. I’m sure there’s plenty of delicious food in that lake

 

[ZenSpider]

"We were evicted from our hole in the ground; WE HAD TO GO AND LIVE IN A LAKE!"

Luxury

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Did I make a mistake waiting for 3 turns to settle? In terms of balance between getting to a more preferable tile, vs turns without producing anything, what do people usually consider acceptable?

Not necessarily a mistake. It depends on how much better the new location was. The key things to look for in your first city are:

• can I settle on a Plains Hill?
• can I settle on a Luxury?
• are there are at least two tiles within the first two rings that produce either 2F/2P or 3F/1P?
• does it at least have coastal housing, so I can get the city up to size 4 quickly?

For your second (and possibly third) city, you're looking for:

• the same things as the above
• ideally the minimum amount of distance from your capital, so that your cities are close together for defence and district adjacency bonuses
  
• a good campus location (very helpful no matter what victory condition you're going for)
• if you don't have an issue with chopping, as much Stone and Woods close by as possible

After that, the only really important thing about a city location is that it allows you to pack as many cities into your available space as possible. Water no longer matters as you'll already have your Early Empire boost and you can add housing through Granaries, etc. as needed to eventually get any city up to size 10 population, after which there's a diminishing return to additional population.

 

[crouchy]

Not necessarily a mistake. It depends on how much better the new location was. The key things to look for in your first city are:

• can I settle on a Plains Hill?
• can I settle on a Luxury?
• are there are at least two tiles within the first two rings that produce either 2F/2P or 3F/1P?
• does it at least have coastal housing, so I can get the city up to size 4 quickly?

For your second (and possibly third) city, you're looking for:

• the same things as the above
• ideally the minimum amount of distance from your capital, so that your cities are close together for defence and district adjacency bonuses
  
• a good campus location (very helpful no matter what victory condition you're going for)
• if you don't have an issue with chopping, as much Stone and Woods close by as possible

After that, the only really important thing about a city location is that it allows you to pack as many cities into your available space as possible. Water no longer matters as you'll already have your Early Empire boost and you can add housing through Granaries, etc. as needed to eventually get any city up to size 10 population, after which there's a diminishing return to additional population.

Thanks for the detailed response! This is very interesting.

I had not realized the size 10 population was considered the sweet spot.

 

[Gaonac'h]

Also it seems like if an ai get a clear view of your capital she is likely to denounce you in the upcoming turns and sent warriors your way.
So don't exchange capitals position with the ai in the very early game, unless you already have some army.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Probably.

Post save/sshots

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I started a new game last night as Persia. King difficulty.

It took me 3 turns to settle the first city, as there was an excellent settlement location nearby with hills, mountains and a river beside it.

After sending out my scout, I found that Trajan (Rome) was ~15/20 tiles away from my capital. I knew as soon as I found him this was going to be a problem. I built a Slinger, but didn't focus purely on military units as I didn't want to be left behind production wise. Maybe this was a mistake.

Basically, within 40/50 turns he had conquered my capital and I was pretty much dead and buried. He outnumbered me militarily, there was no way I was fighting him off.

Is this a situation you can just put down to getting a bit unlucky with the neighbouring Civ being so close, and being someone who's relatively aggressive?

I tried reloading the save and tried to pre-empt his attack on me by attacking Rome, but again his military was much stronger and he repelled my attack easily and I was pretty much dead and buried at this point as well.

This is a winnable position against Rome on Emperor, with a lot of room for error:



I managed to roll that woofer in a mostly co-op MP game and had to beat AI Rome 1v1. I made some significant mistakes, but still won handily. On Deity it would be more dangerous and I probably wouldn't have gotten away with mistakes, but I wouldn't be on a turn timer and would likely be sober.

If you're getting overrun by the AI in this game, especially below deity, there's nearly 100% guaranteed something about your build order choices or unit control that could be done differently to hold off the AI then take its cities instead.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I started a new game last night as Persia. King difficulty.

It took me 3 turns to settle the first city, as there was an excellent settlement location nearby with hills, mountains and a river beside it.

After sending out my scout, I found that Trajan (Rome) was ~15/20 tiles away from my capital. I knew as soon as I found him this was going to be a problem. I built a Slinger, but didn't focus purely on military units as I didn't want to be left behind production wise. Maybe this was a mistake.

Basically, within 40/50 turns he had conquered my capital and I was pretty much dead and buried. He outnumbered me militarily, there was no way I was fighting him off.

Is this a situation you can just put down to getting a bit unlucky with the neighbouring Civ being so close, and being someone who's relatively aggressive?

I tried reloading the save and tried to pre-empt his attack on me by attacking Rome, but again his military was much stronger and he repelled my attack easily and I was pretty much dead and buried at this point as well.

Yeah, one Slinger probably doesn't cut it, a lot of the time. I play at Emperor, but I almost always build a 2nd Warrior and 2 Slingers before anything else. That's if I'm not specifically anticipating a fight - even if nothing else happens, that force allows me to explore and track Barbarians back to their lairs for the Era Score points. But if I hear the drums of war, I gather 4 Warriors and 4 Slingers to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, etc, etc.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Yeah, one Slinger probably doesn't cut it, a lot of the time. I play at Emperor, but I almost always build a 2nd Warrior and 2 Slingers before anything else. That's if I'm not specifically anticipating a fight - even if nothing else happens, that force allows me to explore and track Barbarians back to their lairs for the Era Score points. But if I hear the drums of war, I gather 4 Warriors and 4 Slingers to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, etc, etc.

This is good advice.

The key to surviving an early AI rush is to avoid having your city put under siege. Slingers don't cut it, but Warriors are great at it. With a second Warrior to go along with your starting Warrior, you can usually survive even the Deity AI Turn 15 Warrior rush, as that will slow the AI down long enough to pump out another Warrior, then another Warrior, etc.

Only when you have the flanks of your city secure should you build Slingers. Generally don't research Archery until you already have 3 to 4 Slingers (there can be exceptions).