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Anybody have success with Mongolia?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Trackmaster, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. Trackmaster

    Trackmaster Warlord

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    I feel like one of my missions before I give this game up for good is to win a 8-10 Civilization game with Mongolia (I always play at Emperor level). It just seems so easy and enticing at the time. I think that the Kesik is pound for pound the best UU in the game for its era, and I'm a big fan of Calvary bonuses. I figure how can it lose? But then I realize the problems:

    • Unique ability is pretty worthless. Does anybody ever have any reason to take out City States? It might be one thing if you could burn them to the ground, but I don't want to take on additional city cities early in the game that have no wonders or Great Works. I like to be as peaceful as possible with CS's and make them my friends, not enemies.
    • The Khal's are OK, but also pretty marginal. It's nice they can heal my guys, but annoying that they can't heal in the same tile. I guess alright, but still kind of meh. With a civilization that has has so much speed, I could just run away instead of needing a Khal.
    • Yes, the Kesik's are amazing for their time period. I can wipe out any civilization in the Medieval area like its nothing, but I feel like the main problem that you run into is that they lose all of their promotions when upgraded. And they get as obsolete as the telegraph quickly. Once cities get castles and you're competing against rifleman and gattling guns things get tough. You can only run around for so long. And once airplanes are introduced, its all over. I feel like the unit would be more practical if it was designed to allow you to keep or convert over some of its amazing promotions.
    It seems like the key to winning is to have a blitz campaign where you can capture over half of the world before they know what hits them and then push from there. I've had many great games where I was cruising through, but then one Civ that I haven't touched becomes a major power and my Kesiks that I don't want to turn into Calvary turn into a liability.

    I feel like the ultimate Civ (Shaka) is very one era oriented, but fares better because not only is it so powerful that you can wipe everyone out before the Modern Age hits, but you also their upgrades transfer over to modern gunpowder units.

    Thoughts? Advice?
     
  2. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Keshiks are good enough for a blitzkrieg campaign in which you just sweep the entire map no mercy. If you get to upgrade Keshiks and you still haven't won, you're using them wrongly
     
  3. Trackmaster

    Trackmaster Warlord

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    Yeah, but with the balance of the game, its tough to take out EVERYONE in 40-50 turns. Especially with continents, when you have to wait to get navigation to get to the other continent.
     
  4. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    well yes but on Pangaea it's quite doable. You get Keshiks roughly on T110 standard speed and just roll, man

    edit: I feel like doing a blitz game as the Khan right now but I haven't played 5 in yonks
     
  5. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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    I am currently playing a game as the Mongols, on Deity, and I am having a very successful game atm. I got Chivalry a bit later than I wanted (T115), but at T135, I have conquered 3 capitals. Thinking about your situation, I don't know just how well you can use Keshiks because the most important strategy is to have trained a bunch of Chariots and then, once you get Chivalry, upgrade them. Honor is obviously best for this (90g per upgrade on Standard). I say this because the AI is quite poor on Immortal (at this stage) and I imagine it's even worse on Emperor so even selling luxuries might be a problem. Tech rate from AIs is also slower so Chivalry at T110 might not be a good benchmark for you, I don't know...

    I suggest you pick a map where you have many Calendar luxuries around to get some gold that way, at least. Also, build your Markets sooner rather than later and send at least one trade route to an AI (it won't be amazing gold but it'll help). Another good idea would be to pick 5 Billion Years (less hills) and Arid (less forest/jungle) for the map settings.
     
  6. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Try attacking earlier with Chariot Archers, 5-6 CAs + 2 melee units should be good enough to take cities on Emperor. This might delay Chivalry a bit, but your Keshiks will have quite a lot of experience when you upgrade the CAs, plus there will be fewer capitals left to take.
     
  7. IkM

    IkM King

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    When you get Keshiks, NEVER stop. Just trample entire map as soon as possible. You can eliminate many civs in really short time with Keshiks and rest of the game up to your skill. Autocracy is good choice you can make Khan travel way longer in late game. Cav units have +1 movement points and it's not something small.
     
  8. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    I like Liberty and then great merchant as the finisher -> lots of $$$ for upgrades and a city state ally to offset imminent happiness hits
     
  9. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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    Interesting idea. Not discarding this as a bad option (especially if the difficulty isn't Deity), but it seems a bit odd getting a GMerch instead of getting Machu or NC with a GE... Of course, Mongols/Arabs are an exception and the window of opportunity is 100% the most important thing so, getting those Keshiks/CAs asap, in whatever way you can make it happen, is a good and sound idea in my book.

    I will say that in my current game I had 0 CS allies and 0 AIs with a DoF before I started warring and I initially didn't have the money to upgrade all of my Chariots when I hit Chivalry but, since I'd finished Honor, I was able to upgrade the rest very soon after and, with the money from capturing cities + some pillaging (could've done a lot more of this) + killing units, it was enough to ally 2 CS (more for the horses and happiness than anything else). Surprisingly enough, Venice wanted a DoF after I'd captured Palenque... but I don't expect that to be the case in most games. :rolleyes:
     
  10. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    I don't think I've ever used a GE on Machu, that thing goes flying way before I can get to that tech
     
  11. mdl5000

    mdl5000 Prince

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    I found a game of Mongolia vs Zulu to be difficult and I just gave up. With their XP boosts, they just heal, and heal, and heal...
     
  12. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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    Sounds like you needed more Keshiks, then. :D
     
  13. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    ah that's why you either show up with more Keshiks, or Chariot rush him before Impis
     
  14. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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    Chariot rushing Shaka seems extremely unlikely though... If you are unlucky enough to spawn as his only neighbor then he'll have triple your army by the time you have, oh I don't know, 10 Chariots? I didn't really face such opposition in my game, but when you have ~15 Keshiks with Logistics (and beyond), there is absolutely NOTHING that any AI army can do against a human player.

    Spoiler :

    I don't claim to be anywhere near the level of such great warmongers as consentient, peddrohelm and the like, but there's really no amazing level of skill required with Keshiks and Camel Archers: it's just hit and run a thousand times over.
     
  15. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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  16. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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    Standard size/speed on Deity, using HB's map scripts. Thanks for the link, st. :D
     
  17. evoke

    evoke Chieftain

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    If you have a moment to be kind, could you mention what mod(s) you are using for the nice numbers and graphics bits on the right. I've been trying to figure it out ever since I saw it the other day in a peddrohelm video (and now your screenshot), but am new and haven't tracked it down yet.
     
  18. phryxolydian

    phryxolydian Warlord

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  19. Sascha77

    Sascha77 Prince

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    I only ever play on Marathon, so my results might not be representative for games run on faster settings.

    That said: Mongolia genuinely surprised the hell out of me.

    As you said, their UA is pretty much useless and their other unique features didn't look like much to me on paper, but boy, was I wrong about this civ.

    In my Mongolia-game (Emperor, Marathon, continents, large) I decided early on to go for domination, so I started out by building a solid economy with strong science-output and I even managed to pick up a religion. I also started building horse-units early on (which I usually don't) so that I'd be able to hasten my switch to war (through upgrades) once Chivalry hit.

    I started my war with three or four Keshiks and two experienced melee-units and the other civs started to drop like flies. When I got my first Khan (through combat, I hadn't even used the honor-path), my army became truly unstoppable. I managed to conquer all civs on my continent, then I put in a little "exploration pause" to meet the other leaders while also catching up in naval tech. Then I built a few frigates and started my conquest of the rest of the world. I ended up with six Keshiks in my conquest-force (cats/trebs/cannon played no role in this game), which together with a couple of now ultra-experienced melee-units and a few frigates for bombardment were more than enough to achieve victory well before the Keshik became obsolete.

    The key to all this is, of course, the Keshik, which is insanely strong because:
    1. of its ability to move out of harm's way after it range-attacks/bombards
    2. of its "no penalty when attacking cities"-trait
    3. of the AI's inability to properly defend their cities. I think I didn't lose a single Keshik over the entire duration of the game.

    Add to that the highly effective and mobile Khan and it's nearly impossible to not steamroll the map - especially when you've invested into science and no other civ is on or above your own tech-level.

    I will admit that the last couple of cities were a bit harder to crack with Keshiks as my only ranged-/siege-units. By that time some of the AI had put up better defenses in their major cities. However: I still managed to take those cities, even though it took me three or four turns longer per city than during the initial phase of my war.

    S.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
    George Abitbol likes this.
  20. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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