I wouldn't call the barbarians evil. Even when people "seem" pretty evil, that still doesnt justify murdering their civilian population. For example, in war, generally speaking occupying countries capture, but don't kill cities, or are called war criminals. With that in mind, i think razing any city but THE most evil (aka the ones that are worshipping demons, aka ashen veil) would be an evil thing to do. As it is, i would consider barbarians more chaotic than evil. They are tribal and warlike, but they don't have a goal of destroying the good, or preserving evil. So burning their cities down is still killing civilians that aren't pure evil, which still sounds like a bad thing to me. I dont have a real strong opinion about it, i'm just trying to make logical connections as to why things are the way they are, and how it makes sense to me.
Anyone Else Go Back to FFH2 version 22?
- Thread starter Sarisin
- Start date
vorshlumpf
Emperor
Even razing a city with Ashen Veil in it, to me, can be a bad act (and up the AC). After all, religious influence in a city is not absolute. What if the same city also has Fellowship and Runes in it? Is it not a bad thing to displace/kill all those other worshippers?
By the way, does the AC go down if you Inquisition the Ashen Veil out of a city? I don't recall this being the case, but I haven't tried it myself. That would seem to make more sense then reducing the AC for razing the entire city.
By the way, does the AC go down if you Inquisition the Ashen Veil out of a city? I don't recall this being the case, but I haven't tried it myself. That would seem to make more sense then reducing the AC for razing the entire city.
Yes, I see what you are saying, but you are missing one important point in the discussion here.
That is that in the games the barb cities spring up like weeds. In most cases, certainly with the AI civs attacking barb cities, they are only population 1. You have no choice but to raze the city. It is clearly a good strategy to take out barb cities close to your borders. I don't think anyone will deny that. However, if you don't want to capture the city, or it is only pop. 1, it gets razed. Usually, I can Sanctify the city ruins and no harm done. However, the AI never does this. And, again, IMO, the counter increases too quickly.
The solution as I see it to solving this is to make razing the barb city have no effect on the counter. I think if the barb cities popped up a little less (on land maps as Niilo said), that would be a solution too. Kael tried something to fix this, but IMO it didn't slow down the popping of barb cities, especially those in the same location of razed barb cities.
As I said, if I had to choose between Good and Evil, I would say the barbs were evil. They certainly are not Good. But, I can also see how you can say they are not Evil. But, then again, is destroying and pillaging a Good thing?
So, let's call them Neutral or sorta NPCs that wreak their own brand of havoc, but do not impact the counter when their cities are razed. Frankly, they move the counter quite a bit on their own in raging barb games by razing enough cities.
This is an interesting question. Also, what would happen to the counter if you used Purge the Unfaithful and you had cities with the AV religion in them. Would the counter decrease?
Actually, I built that for the first time in a game yesterday. I had only FOL in all my cities and I just wanted to see what it did. Well, what it did was decrease my score by 60 pts! That's it. I still can't figure that one out.
Anyway, back to your original point. I have seen the counter move all over the place when I am at war with a civ that has the AV. Sometimes it decreases (especially if you take out the holy city), sometimes it doesn't move, and sometimes it actually increases. Maybe because there are more than one religion in it.
jan030
Chieftain
Hey Sarisin, I tried a game at marathon and large, I didnt like it, man it takes forever!!! i am sorry cant help you with it.
But I did start a epic game on large, that is a bit better. Technologies and things you can do in/with your city is just managable. I noticed there that when Archeron was born/created the AC took of. On normal speed (standard map) i never noticed that. So yeah perhaps its going too fast, but I am afraid thats a good thing ;-)
I am a bit of whimp.....I almost never start a war, just dont dare, more the builder kind of guy. So with a good AC i have to go to war ;-) and ofcourse win a lot, I am never bad at warring. Besides, when you want to build the mithril golem or ....(cant remember other names) you need a Ac of 70+ I say the AC must run faster!!! ;-)
But I did start a epic game on large, that is a bit better. Technologies and things you can do in/with your city is just managable. I noticed there that when Archeron was born/created the AC took of. On normal speed (standard map) i never noticed that. So yeah perhaps its going too fast, but I am afraid thats a good thing ;-)
I am a bit of whimp.....I almost never start a war, just dont dare, more the builder kind of guy. So with a good AC i have to go to war ;-) and ofcourse win a lot, I am never bad at warring. Besides, when you want to build the mithril golem or ....(cant remember other names) you need a Ac of 70+ I say the AC must run faster!!! ;-)
I'm glad you were able to try a game with the different settings, jan.
Yes, there are many differences in playing the slower speed games and I think most agree now that there is an advantage to those who like to see the counter move in these games. I guess I am not because I like to play mostly good civs and have time to build up my army and defenses against the nasties the counter brings too quickly in slow speed games IMO.
I agree that starting wars can be tough because you never know when other civs will dogpile on you. If you want the decision on war to be made for you, try playing Basium or your civ that summoned him. You will constantly be at war without deciding to do so.
The circumstances in my new game allowed me to try a little experiment...I just love those.
I am playing as Rhoanna/Hippus with my usual game settings. I was fortunate to get Horseback Riding early on. So, I decided to create plenty of Raiders and send them out to raze every single barb city that popped up close to my borders.
It is year 278 in my Epic game. Care to guess how many barb cities I have razed? How about 11!!! Remember the barbs have only been on the map for about 200 turns.
The AI was particularly persistent about setting up cities in two locations having built 3 on the same site in both cases. I had no Life Mana and could not Sanctify if I wanted to. I couldn't leave a Raider near the site to avoid another barb city sprouting up because the Lizardmen were prowling about.
The counter was at 32 - over 600 turns left in the game! Yes, I was responsible for 11 of those movements forward, but the barbs had destroyed AI cities and I am sure the AI had razed barb cities.
This all gets back to my original points: the counter should not be affected by razing barb cities and/or the barb cities are just too prolific in these slower speed games. Yes, the type of map certainly has something to do with it, but I think the counter is moving far too fast in these games to be interesting.
I realize the game was developed without the 'non-standard' game settings in mind, though. I just wanted to give a few stats to give an idea to those who don't play these settings.
I am playing as Rhoanna/Hippus with my usual game settings. I was fortunate to get Horseback Riding early on. So, I decided to create plenty of Raiders and send them out to raze every single barb city that popped up close to my borders.
It is year 278 in my Epic game. Care to guess how many barb cities I have razed? How about 11!!! Remember the barbs have only been on the map for about 200 turns.
The AI was particularly persistent about setting up cities in two locations having built 3 on the same site in both cases. I had no Life Mana and could not Sanctify if I wanted to. I couldn't leave a Raider near the site to avoid another barb city sprouting up because the Lizardmen were prowling about.
The counter was at 32 - over 600 turns left in the game! Yes, I was responsible for 11 of those movements forward, but the barbs had destroyed AI cities and I am sure the AI had razed barb cities.
This all gets back to my original points: the counter should not be affected by razing barb cities and/or the barb cities are just too prolific in these slower speed games. Yes, the type of map certainly has something to do with it, but I think the counter is moving far too fast in these games to be interesting.
I realize the game was developed without the 'non-standard' game settings in mind, though. I just wanted to give a few stats to give an idea to those who don't play these settings.
jan030
Chieftain
I'm glad you were able to try a game with the different settings, jan.
Yes, there are many differences in playing the slower speed games and I think most agree now that there is an advantage to those who like to see the counter move in these games. I guess I am not because I like to play mostly good civs and have time to build up my army and defenses against the nasties the counter brings too quickly in slow speed games IMO.
I agree that starting wars can be tough because you never know when other civs will dogpile on you. If you want the decision on war to be made for you, try playing Basium or your civ that summoned him. You will constantly be at war without deciding to do so.
Well, with large/epic year 480 AC on 18. I am bored
I am elohim (the she-la, cant rember her name) Have order (holy city) but no one tried for veil so i have that too. Tried to GIVE it away but everybody has it but doenst do a thing with it. So no Hyborem and no Basium and completely no war! Perhaps its because of noble, but with normal speed there is more happening.Why i dont converse to veil? I am a whimp
Besides i ahve a fully upgraded Valin, i would lose him and have to start over again with Rosier. To much time/work Well, with large/epic year 480 AC on 18. I am bored
Why i dont converse to veil? I am a whimp
The Elohim/Einion Logos is my favorite leader to play.
If you are bored, I suggest you switch to the AV and see what happens. That will change your orientation and you may find some civs declaring war on you. If that isn't exciting enough research the Infernal Pact and bring on Hyborem and his merry band of Infernals.
Yes, it is tough losing Valin, but I think if you allow him to be killed off before you change, you can then build the Shrine of Champions. That might be just for national champions (yours in Corlindale - did you build him yet?) though, I'm not sure. At least someone else with the Order will not be able to build Valin.
