Anyone remember the old Avalon Hill and SSI strategy board games?

[sabo]

Man I used to play those with my former brother in law for hours, I remember one AH game that was called "the russian front" it was so historically accurate, and the "what if" scenarios were great, you could actually see what might have happened had the Germans invaded Russia in March 1941 instead of June. Does anyone know of any computer games out there that are like those old board games, I'm talking about a GOOD game with a GOOD AI.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Good luck on the AI part... I've played alot of games, but never seem to luck out and find a truly great game.

We play Diplomacy here, which is an old AH game. Otherwise, there's not alot of options to recreate the great Avalon Hill feel.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I'm an old Grognard, as is Lefty on this site, but we are few and far between I'm afraid.

 

[MadScot]

A telling commen t on the state of computer game Ai (including Civ, I fear) is that I have never been as impressed with computer AI (which relies, it seems, on brute calculating force, system handicaps and simple disregard for the rules) as I have been with some of the AI systems designed into board wargames.

Victory Games' Tokyo Express, for example, managed to create a truly challenging and cunning opponent AI, despite having to rely on the player himself to operate it.

I suspect that if the same degree of sophistication in design were applied to computer AIs, there would be a lot fewer people complaining about the dumb AI.

And lot more complaining how impossible it was to win this game!

 

[Padma]

As another "grumbling old soldier" (I cut my wargaming teeth on the old boardgames, before computer strategy games were even dreamt of) I have never seen a computer simulation that had as good an AI as another human opponent.

As has been discussed in other forums on his board, there is currently not the capability to produce an AI that is both smart, yet inexpensive, and will run on anything less than (beyond) state of the art machines.

 

[Four Four Seven]

I too grew up on the old Avalon Hill games. In fact, my user ID "Four Four Seven" is a reference to the "Hood" British battle-cruiser from the old AH game "War at Sea." (Attacks with four dice, has four hit points, and a speed of seven! Wow!) I played many many games of "War at Sea," "Victory in the Pacific," and others back in the day (and when I see my brother, we still pull 'em out once in a while).

Also a big fan of the AH/3M "Bookcase" games ("Acquire," "Stocks and Bonds," "Executive Decision," etc.) "Acquire" is still one of the all-time great games. And, yes, I also enjoy "A&A" (all three versions).

This is why I'm so looking forward to the "Civ" boardgame - even more than PTW! It's a combo of the old and the new!

 

[MadScot]

Originally posted by Padma
As has been discussed in other forums on his board, there is currently not the capability to produce an AI that is both smart, yet inexpensive, and will run on anything less than (beyond) state of the art machines.

Unfortunately, there seems to be neither the will nor the skill to construct a simulation of intelligence in lieu of being able to produce true AI. What happened to those design skills when computer games became the norm?

 

[Old n Slow]

Ahh yes another era. My brother & I enjoyed the Christmas tradition of an AH game -- D-Day, Chancellorsville, Stalingrad. In those days, the board games came out one per year. Later, with Waterloo & beyond, they upped the pace. There were some flaws -- reasonable play always saw the allies win in D-Day, the North win in Chancellorsville, & the Russians win in Stalingrad, maybe the best of these three -- one or two blunders by the Russians & the Germans were though the line!

Still have many of these games -- have played variants of Panzerblitz in the last decade, and play Titan all the time -- in fact I’m looking for another set; my game is wearing out!

 

[Old n Slow]

As far as SSI, I bought the General four pack some time ago & still pop in some of those CD’s from time to time. Fan Gen’s my favorite, but I play Star Gen often -- the computer takes a long time between moves letting me take care of some non game aspects of real life.

 

[sabo]

well I just bought Europa Universalis II, I'll see how THIS AI plays

 

[TheDS]

Ogre had a really good AI. I found it almost impossible to stop that bleepin tank!

Empire had a really good AI. In fact, I'm playing Empire Deluxe on the other computer and I see it do fairly bright stuff all the time. It knows to hit land units near its cities instead of worrying about the other stuff. It knows not to attack battleships with loners. It sends fighters after my bombers. It defends good terrain and doesn't attack from rivers very often (which gives a combat penalty). However, I suspect that the AI in the original Empire was better.

EU and EU2 are pretty good, considering the vast quantity of things you have to do in the game.

I found the bots in UT to be pretty good, even if they could see me when I was invisible. The UT2 demo I'm playing now and then seems like it's got some cheats. I am convinced the bots know where I am at all times, because I have seen them turn around and attack me when I was in places they couldn't have seen me, and I hadn't fired at them yet.

The Q2 and Q3 bots, on the other hand, are not terribly good. I can easily set up timing so I snag stuff as it appears. I hardly ever get anything good in UT unless I work for it or it's located somewhere the bots just don't want to go.

I think the real problem with "modern" AIs is that the games are fairly complicated, the rules are changing all during construction of the game, and the AI programmers simply don't have enough time to work on it. If they had a full gameplan in advance, and knew exactly what to expect the whole development cycle, and utilized multi-threading, they could probably do a much better job.

Then skill levels could be based on AI brightness, not AI cheats.

 

[sabo]

Update on my post from 5 years ago has anyone run into a game since then, that has the realism and plays like those old AH games?

 

[warpstorm]

Go to matrixgames.com. I think they have what you are looking for.

 

[MadScot]

Highway to the reich and conquest of the Aegean don't play like an old board game (in the sense of hexes and turns) but may be the best operational simulation out there, short of getting shot at for real.

The Korsun Pocket etc series are more in the hex mode - but the graphics are an 'acquired taste'.

 

[Brighteye]

Update on my post from 5 years ago has anyone run into a game since then, that has the realism and plays like those old AH games?

Well, I still own a copy of Russian Campaign. You can buy a CD to install it on your computer, but you need to play against human opponents over the internet. I don't think that it has AI.
There's still nothing to compete with the beautiful intricacy of WaS, ViP, Russian Campaign, Gettysburg and so on. I'm still looking. The problem is that most board games are played by families, with children. Complex board games aren't, I suppose, profitable.

 

[warpstorm]

Brighteye, complex board games are more popular than ever. Go to www.boardgamegeek.com to find other true believers.

 

[Brighteye]

wow. This site will steal all my free time.

 

[sabo]

Well I have Korsun pocket.. It's 'ok' I guess. I've tried the Blitzkrieg and Battle Front games and they're ok for about 2 or 3 times around but then get that 'same old' feeling. I have't tried all the Matix games though maybe I'll give them a shot.

@Brighteye... Russian Campaign was my favorite of all time, you could play it over and over again and never get tired of it. I have two questions for you

1) Where can I get this CD
2) Would you be interested in an online game of RC with a Yank?

 

[Brighteye]

On the homepage of L2 design group, who are the publisher of the latest edition:
http://www.l2designgroup.com/Russian%20Campaign.html

I have yet to install it on my computer, but it sounds good. Let's go!

 

[Brighteye]

Does anyone know what the difference between Russia Besieged and Russian Campaign is?