AP Cheese

[Fish Man]

How do you prevent a religious victory? In my last game on monarch, Zara Yaqob won one on turn 180. There was literally nothing I could do about it, short of reloading 80 turns ago and building the AP myself. This is really bullfeathers - there was no way to prevent the people who voted for him from voting from him, as the entire planet was Hindu at this point and the other 1-2 religious blocs that existed were nowhere to be found, and the only other viable candidate, Victoria, was hated by pretty much everyone else. How do you prevent BS like this, or is there no way but turning off religious victory?

 

[DrCron]

It's not always possible to stop it, but usually you can spread the AP religion through your cities to get more votes and that alone can be enough. Also, spread the AP religion through the land of a leader that hates the main candidate (by turn 180 you probably should have found everyone that the AI found, especially on monarch). Also keep an eye on the diplo screen. If Zara got a lot of votes to be the AP leader, you can anticipate that he will win the vote for religious leader as well. At that point you need to start messing his diplo. Bribe Hindu leaders to change into a different religion (or free religion if that's possible and good enough), or bribe Zara to stop trading with them, or even start a war between him and someone else if possible.

 

[Fish Man]

It's not always possible to stop it, but usually you can spread the AP religion through your cities to get more votes and that alone can be enough. Also, spread the AP religion through the land of a leader that hates the main candidate (by turn 180 you probably should have found everyone that the AI found, especially on monarch). Also keep an eye on the diplo screen. If Zara got a lot of votes to be the AP leader, you can anticipate that he will win the vote for religious leader as well. At that point you need to start messing his diplo. Bribe Hindu leaders to change into a different religion (or free religion if that's possible and good enough), or bribe Zara to stop trading with them, or even start a war between him and someone else if possible.

None of these would've worked. Everyone on the other side of the pangaea was in a chummy lovefest with Zara, so stop trading and starting wars weren't possible. Nobody had liberalism for free religion or was willing to switch. There was literally NOBODY who hated him, and the two that were cautious hated the other candidate (Victoria) more.

At this point I'm thinking the only way to win would've been to savescum 80 turns, convert to Hinduism, build the AP myself, then give the AIs free horsehocky until they all vote for me. Pity that there's literally one way this game can end.

Also, I had just the perfect map for an HA rush...except I was boxed in by Augustus and Shaka, both of which had pretty much hard counters to HAs (praets and impis). Sucks to suck...

 

[DrCron]

the two that were cautious hated the other candidate (Victoria) more

They don't need to vote for the other candidate, they can abstain. You didn't say anything about spreading Hinduism, either through your land, the land of someone who doesn't like Zara, or ideally both.

Also, I had just the perfect map for an HA rush...except I was boxed in by Augustus and Shaka, both of which had pretty much hard counters to HAs (praets and impis).

Impis aren't stronger against HAs than standard spearmen (they just have a movement bonus, which isn't a big deal). And regarding prets, on Monarch I'm pretty sure an HA rush can be done before the AI has IW. In any case, just locate the AI's metal and smash it. Unless they built a city right on the metal, it shouldn't be so hard. I pulled an immortal rush against an AI that was starting to build swordsmen and still worked (on deity). Just smash the iron mine(s) and you should be all right.

How many cities did you have by turn 180? This is starting to sound like your Hindu population was just too low to be relevant on the vote.

 

[unas876]

Just as a sidenote @DrCron, isn't it the case that Shake builds more Impi because they're his UU?
I've tried HA rushing him (on Immortal and on Deity recently) and it felt like he builds extra spears.
Also the problem with those guys is that they can pick off your guys way more easily all across the land, whereas regular spears have very limited movement.

On topic: sometimes I found that it can be really tough to deal with AP crap, sure. But one thing to note is that if you see that there's a religious lovefest going on you have to do something about it real early. It can be tough when theres no good amount of warmongers on the map. But one thing is for sure, once the AP is built it might already be too late to start acting.

and the two that were cautious hated the other candidate (Victoria) more.

This, however, I haven't seen before. In my experience, as DrCron said, they should be abstaining if they are cautious or less with everyone that is up for the vote.

 

[Anysense]

On topic: sometimes I found that it can be really tough to deal with AP crap, sure. But one thing to note is that if you see that there's a religious lovefest going on you have to do something about it real early. It can be tough when theres no good amount of warmongers on the map.

In such circumstances you may choose to join lovefest. In all likelyhood it will take a very good diplomatic skill to win through the AP, but preventing AI from winning that way is relatively easy.

 

[DrCron]

isn't it the case that Shake builds more Impi because they're his UU?

Maybe. He's a warmonger, so he's supposed to build many units regardless. Still, I imagine it should be doable if one can smash his metal.

if you see that there's a religious lovefest going on you have to do something about it real early

This is also true. Even without AP, a big AI lovefest is always a problem.

you may choose to join lovefest. In all likelyhood it will take a very good diplomatic skill to win through the AP, but preventing AI from winning that way is relatively easy

Also true. As long as you have enough cities with the AP religion, you should only need 1 of the AI participating in the lovefest to like you better than the AP owner. A "good trade" boost a few turns before the vote should be enough to achieve this (and maybe swapping to their favorite civic too).

 

[MrGrandiose]

Appropriate user name OP.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The AP is the most powerful wonder in the entire game. It lets trash play win the game. I would be proof of it, since without it, I don't go past prince. That's also kind of why I leave it on.

I have no idea what they were smoking when they made it. An early game wonder that is essentially "I win". Why bother planning a tech path, micromanage your cities, and time your attacks when you can just herp-a-derp a win?

The only surefire way is to build the AP, and switch to an obscure religion just as it is finished (helps if there's a golden age) and then rejoin the lovefest.

That's why I go for it myself but I understand that's not always possible. I suppose it's possible to lose to it through bad luck in this case but I've never seen it after I've learned the mechanics.

Alarm bells always need to go off when you hear Christianity got founded. Immediately assess the religious situation and join the side you will win.

However.....

If you feel that you will not be the most loved of this bloc, it's also in your best interest to keep heathens alive. These will often be your path of resistance. So if you don't think you'll be voted for, then the strength of any rival blocks will help you.

Consider you have a neighboring Gandhi that nobody likes. He's Buddhist all by himself, and you hear Theology researched by 500 BC. This is bad. It would be highly beneficial for you to keep him alive because if he builds the AP, then it's unlikely he will be able to AP cheese. If he's not, then it's possible that none of the future AP religion will go into his cities. (If it does,. you can "fix" it by capturing it). What else can help is if you acquire theology yourself, and trade it to them too. Having theocracy is also a great way to stop being "infected" by unwanted religions.

I understand this goes against conventional logic, but it really is the best way if the AP goes to another bloc if you can't control the best one.

It also gives more prerogative to keep people alive instead of wiping them completely. Isabella, a zealot, with her 2 cities you left for her in the tundra may be your last bastion of defense.

Also do your best to prop up whoever is their rival if you're not yourself. This includes voting for them , and spreading religion as needed.

I understand that it may have not helped in that particular situation but I feel these things will help the AP work with, not against you in the future.

As a truly desperate measure, if your map has any islands, you may attempt to form a colony that won't have the religion.

However, in most cases, you don't have to panic. Even if this all fails and they are loved, they still need 75% of the vote, which is a lot of votes, so work hard to keep it down somehow.

In the end, this thing is unfair. No doubt about it. But for me, there's only 3 options. You control, the AP, a weakling controls it, or it gets burned down.

EDIT: Just did this on Monarch Pangea. Feels good!

I actually ragequit this on my first try because Brennus settled literally in front of my capital in 2400 BC and I couldn't go anywhere.

This game features Qin building the AP and a buddhist lovefest with me having 5 cities.... in 1500 AD and no academies. That HA attack didn't go that well; Brennus was dead but I wasn't too well. I'm not even big enough to be considered a candidate but I am big enough to block any victories. So the only weak diplomatic target is Fredrick who I've been trading somewhat but he only has 1 city close by.... and runs the risk of Gil flipping all my conquests. But it's okay. I have Cuirassers and they don't. That's all that really matters.Also, Ragnar was a recent convert. We were already on good terms even with different religions thanks to mutual struggles and tributes so spreading the religion to him would make him a important ally.


Fredrick gets killed off (I wouldn't vassal him anyways, and things get much simpler when I sign Defensive pacts with my non-opponents, and also stuffed everything involving health/happiness in my cities. Missionaries were hastily made to spread the religion because this wasn't going to last. At least the cultures and the theaters could hold some culture down.

What did you know, they wanted me to win anyways.

Spoiler :

Geez Pacal...

I really didn't deserve to win this, and I was lucky there were 3 AIs that liked HR, but hey!

 

[Fish Man]

Appropriate user name OP.

Oh, I win all my games. It's just a matter of how many savescums and restarts it takes.

 

[Fish Man]

The AP is the most powerful wonder in the entire game. It lets trash play win the game. I would be proof of it, since without it, I don't go past prince. That's also kind of why I leave it on.

I have no idea what they were smoking when they made it. An early game wonder that is essentially "I win". Why bother planning a tech path, micromanage your cities, and time your attacks when you can just herp-a-derp a win?

The only surefire way is to build the AP, and switch to an obscure religion just as it is finished (helps if there's a golden age) and then rejoin the lovefest.

That's why I go for it myself but I understand that's not always possible. I suppose it's possible to lose to it through bad luck in this case but I've never seen it after I've learned the mechanics.

Alarm bells always need to go off when you hear Christianity got founded. Immediately assess the religious situation and join the side you will win.

However.....

If you feel that you will not be the most loved of this bloc, it's also in your best interest to keep heathens alive. These will often be your path of resistance. So if you don't think you'll be voted for, then the strength of any rival blocks will help you.

Consider you have a neighboring Gandhi that nobody likes. He's Buddhist all by himself, and you hear Theology researched by 500 BC. This is bad. It would be highly beneficial for you to keep him alive because if he builds the AP, then it's unlikely he will be able to AP cheese. If he's not, then it's possible that none of the future AP religion will go into his cities. (If it does,. you can "fix" it by capturing it). What else can help is if you acquire theology yourself, and trade it to them too. Having theocracy is also a great way to stop being "infected" by unwanted religions.

I understand this goes against conventional logic, but it really is the best way if the AP goes to another bloc if you can't control the best one.

It also gives more prerogative to keep people alive instead of wiping them completely. Isabella, a zealot, with her 2 cities you left for her in the tundra may be your last bastion of defense.

Also do your best to prop up whoever is their rival if you're not yourself. This includes voting for them , and spreading religion as needed.

I understand that it may have not helped in that particular situation but I feel these things will help the AP work with, not against you in the future.

As a truly desperate measure, if your map has any islands, you may attempt to form a colony that won't have the religion.

However, in most cases, you don't have to panic. Even if this all fails and they are loved, they still need 75% of the vote, which is a lot of votes, so work hard to keep it down somehow.

In the end, this thing is unfair. No doubt about it. But for me, there's only 3 options. You control, the AP, a weakling controls it, or it gets burned down.

EDIT: Just did this on Monarch Pangea. Feels good!

I actually ragequit this on my first try because Brennus settled literally in front of my capital in 2400 BC and I couldn't go anywhere.

This game features Qin building the AP and a buddhist lovefest with me having 5 cities.... in 1500 AD and no academies. That HA attack didn't go that well; Brennus was dead but I wasn't too well. I'm not even big enough to be considered a candidate but I am big enough to block any victories. So the only weak diplomatic target is Fredrick who I've been trading somewhat but he only has 1 city close by.... and runs the risk of Gil flipping all my conquests. But it's okay. I have Cuirassers and they don't. That's all that really matters.Also, Ragnar was a recent convert. We were already on good terms even with different religions thanks to mutual struggles and tributes so spreading the religion to him would make him a important ally.


Fredrick gets killed off (I wouldn't vassal him anyways, and things get much simpler when I sign Defensive pacts with my non-opponents, and also stuffed everything involving health/happiness in my cities. Missionaries were hastily made to spread the religion because this wasn't going to last. At least the cultures and the theaters could hold some culture down.

What did you know, they wanted me to win anyways.

Spoiler :

Geez Pacal...

I really didn't deserve to win this, and I was lucky there were 3 AIs that liked HR, but hey!

Yeah...agree with all you said. I have three major problems with the AP.

The first is that it allows people to win the game much, much, much faster than is intended or fun. With AP, there's often little reason to care about anything beyond the medieval era, because you can just cheese theology and win game by giving people free stuff or adopting their civics a lot of the time.

The second is that it takes no skill and little long-term strategy to pull off, and so the AI often does it inadvertently. Hardly anybody wants a disproportionately easy win, and even less people want the AI to have an unpreventable easy win that they literally luck into.

The third is the same problem a lot of other IV players and I have with V...AP shoehorns you into a particular strategy that you're almost sure to win if you follow but sure to lose if you don't. Remember 4-city tradition? Either follow it and turtle or pretty much lose? Feels the same with AP...either build it, control it, and win with it (not even in the way that gives you a choice in the matter...) or don't build it and lose. The presence of AP sometimes makes other strategies or victory conditions a moot point, simply because it's so optimal and predominant if we're just talking about winning here.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, unlike Civ V at least you can prepare or at least co-opt it. The problem with V is that it basically forces you to be unable to ignore various features, so dumb stuff like World Congress and Ideologies are shoved in your face and you have to revolve your strategy on. AP is in that league though. The case against Civ V, is that it is inevitably an anti-human feature. Much like warmonger penalities, these are literally "We can't give you a real challenge so instead we'll piss you off" If I could burn down the World Congress, you know I would.

I think it had a lot to do with scrublords being like "oh my god, I never needed culture to beat chieftain, make culture more important". Then you're stuck having to build tall and get culture and stuff because blah blah blah. I think you know about it more than me so I'll stop. It's much like combat changing as such because terribads don't bother learning the mechanics of the game and think they should be able to hold off attacks with 2 archers. (at least build a wall)

Well I think there are cases where pulling an AP victory can be skillful; I had fun reversing the flow in the above game and in the Sury NC, but the AI always lucks into it. Which just sucks. But to be fair, religion is fairly mediocre in this game. Though this is a sledgehammer solution...

 

[Oldlamehand]

And what about razing AP? I know it is not always solution and it means diplomatic penalties, but If it is the only way to stop AI from diplomatic victory....

 

[DrCron]

And what about razing AP? I know it is not always solution and it means diplomatic penalties, but If it is the only way to stop AI from diplomatic victory....

It's easier to just take the city and keep it for yourself. But if you can do that, probably by the time you get there you have taken so many cities from the AP owner that there won't be a chance you lose the vote anyway.

 

[Archon_Wing]

You can certainly raze the AP if defeat is imminent; have no other choice. You can also raze it if it's across the world (especially in another landmass) and simply not viable to spread the religion.The 2 hammers per building probably isn't worth it by that point in the game.

On the other hand, if you think you have enough to block a religous victory, you may consider keeping it in the hopes of seizing control of it later, such as making vassals out of members and you will always be up for vote if you own the AP, even if you're not even in the religion. If other civs start to adopt free religion, then you may win by default.