Apollo difficulty ?

[Makaz]

Hi,

Just sharing a concern there, although this might be fixed for release.

My feeling of deity level Civ 4/5 (sorry I didn't play any earlier version) was that of:

+ constant feeling of being late compared to AI
+ imperative need of a long run strategy with very specific, carefully picked paths
+ no room for mistake
+ very scary early game (constant threat of being rolled over by a battering ram carpet of doom)


Since I cannot wait for Friday, I have been watching Madjinn's games and what struck me was:
+ the complete absence of threat posed by IA early and mid game! MD is building no defensive unit or building for the first 150 turns and still the IA completely ignore the player and never puts the player in a defensive position or under threat
+ the feeling of how easy the game is. I mean it feels like MD is building his strategy along the game (given his constant switches which seems to be picked on the fly) - also he multiple times forget or let die a unit in the miasma which doesn't seem to put him under stress whatsoever


I mean, I can appreciate certain player to enjoy playing easy and not putting too much of thought in the game in terms of strategy but I m getting worried for people looking for challenge and looking to develop the ideal strategies to keep them going / liking the game for hours.

Now it also can perfectly be that this is not meant to be hardest difficulty and there will be major change in release but ... I feel a bit worried to be honest. I can be completely wrong and honestly, since I pre ordered, I hope this is the case.

 

[Elz Majesto]

I think the reason why the game seems "easy" is that the open tech web eliminates "bee line" techs, and puts the "optimal" path all over the place. Also note that, the wonders have been toned down, which may seem insignificant, but Great Library, Petra, and others are known to turn the tide of the game.

Another caveat from the open ended tech web and strategy is that human players are generally superior to AI when it comes to planning out game mechanic strategy. If the AI can barely mount a successful offensive attack, when all things are equal, do you honestly expect them to plot an optimal tech path, and apply the tech appropriately? How many times dont we see the AI spam out expensive tile improvements (Terrascapes, and BioWells) were a simple generator or farm would of suffice?

 

[GhostSalsa]

With delayed landings being the default setting, it seems pretty clear that the devs wants your first BE opponent to be "the planet." It's an intentional change of pace*.

But in Maddjinn's games he ends up behind leader AIs for most of the game, with them finishing victory wonders in time for turn 250 victory or better. So... something is working for the Apollo AI. And for the player the meandering, constant infrastructure focus clearly doesn't work.

Maddjinn is not evaluating AI progress or communicating to the viewer what signs he sees of AI progress that should spur early (probably turn 100-150) human player aggression to take down AIs before they close on victory. In other words the pressure is there, it's just not recognizable to us without better scouting on the enemy.

Having said all this, I agree the game needs to be even harder! Specifically to force the player into optimal build choices and make those choices harder to identify (instead of, it doesn't matter what I do because one internal TR generates more hammers than my city itself).

But it's already pressuring the player into pre-turn-200 aggression, we're just seeing that pressure being ignored.

*And in the ARC vid, he lucked out not being near any nests. In the KP vid, he made good use of befriending the aliens, but at the cost of huge delays to expansion (waiting for aliens to clear intended city spots on their own) that, again, left him behind the AI leader by a lot. In the PAC vid, he abused the broken Purity 1 perk to clear nests and get an aberrantly high amount of expeditions finished, which threw a ton of bonuses on his early game. In the FI vid, we actually see the planet eating his outpost, which is probably closer to norm for a player who doesn't build enough units to hold back the aliens.

 

[Acken]

Another caveat from the open ended tech web and strategy is that human players are generally superior to AI when it comes to planning out game mechanic strategy. If the AI can barely mount a successful offensive attack, when all things are equal, do you honestly expect them to plot an optimal tech path, and apply the tech appropriately? How many times dont we see the AI spam out expensive tile improvements (Terrascapes, and BioWells) were a simple generator or farm would of suffice?

That's why the crazy advantages of the highest difficulty are supposed to help. Nobody expects the AI to use the optimal path, but many like me expect the AI to not be so inept as to being easy with huge bonuses.

 

[Gamewizard]

We haven't actually seen Maddjin win the game yet, so what makes you think Apollo is too easy? Sure the AI wasn't offensive in the ARC video, but they were in the PAC game, and he lost a city for not having enough defense in that one.

 

[aguliondew]

It seems that the a AI during most of his preview play through have started a end game wonder by turn ~210. The staggered start improves your chances against the AI. Aliens help him during most of his play through except his franco-iberia one. Maddjinn has been playing the beta long enough that he is experienced in what techs he should prioritize first based on his starting location. If Apollo does not seem as hard as diety its because of the tech web.

 

[Makaz]

Well I don't know many deity games in Civ V on Pangea map where I can safely ignore any form of military unit under turn 150. You put your towns on hills and have some archers at the ready to mop down early rush. So my feeling is either he gets extremely lucky conditions or there is a lack of agressivity from AI in that difficulty.

He did lost an outpost to aliens in a game, didn't seem to be a big deal and the end of the world at all. He is defintetly playing with having in mind an objective to "show us the game" and without sweating over choices or following long run strategies. Still he survives that long and can develop a wide or tall empire peacefully without having to manoeuver the AI to attack each other and let him alone.

Just "feels" much easier than deity civ V equivalent. But I may be wrong.

 

[MadDjinn]

The AI needs a lot of work, definitely.

Yes, the aliens are meant to be the primary threat early game, rather than the other AI/players. So you won't see turn 30 DoW. Also, I doubt a turn 30 DoW is viable or worth it in BE, which means a later time for a 'rush'.

Ofc, wrt affinity leveled units, that means 'early rush' is actually within 2-4 affinity.

and no, I haven't bothered to play optimally yet.

I've posted the LPs, people can see how it acts/reacts, so figure it out from there.

My view on it is this:

They went from 8 diff levels to 6. The top two got cut off.

If you can play Emperor CivV and win consistently, you'll do fine on Apollo. The only thing to watch is the AI can post sub-300 win times (or earlier if lucky) for the non-dom VCs. The AI will also rush the player 'early' depending on distance between the capitals. Level 2 affinity and some units will cut that down pretty easily.

Granted, this is all 'just for now'. Maybe with patching the AI and game rules will make Apollo harder.

 

[Makaz]

The AI needs a lot of work, definitely.

Yes, the aliens are meant to be the primary threat early game, rather than the other AI/players. So you won't see turn 30 DoW. Also, I doubt a turn 30 DoW is viable or worth it in BE, which means a later time for a 'rush'.

Ofc, wrt affinity leveled units, that means 'early rush' is actually within 2-4 affinity.

and no, I haven't bothered to play optimally yet.

I've posted the LPs, people can see how it acts/reacts, so figure it out from there.

My view on it is this:

They went from 8 diff levels to 6. The top two got cut off.

If you can play Emperor CivV and win consistently, you'll do fine on Apollo. The only thing to watch is the AI can post sub-300 win times (or earlier if lucky) for the non-dom VCs. The AI will also rush the player 'early' depending on distance between the capitals. Level 2 affinity and some units will cut that down pretty easily.

Granted, this is all 'just for now'. Maybe with patching the AI and game rules will make Apollo harder.

The way you do these LP is just awesome. You explore multiple possibilities and options / ways to play which gives us watchers a broader view of the game capabilities and the possible choices offered to us. I Just love it. It shares the depth of the game instead of focussing on beelined strategies.

You confirm my doubts though. Let's hope the 2 missing diff levels come back for launch (not mentionning the boat's problems and other issues).

 

[Acken]

My view on it is this:

They went from 8 diff levels to 6. The top two got cut off.

If you can play Emperor CivV and win consistently, you'll do fine on Apollo.

I guess my bet that I'll win Apollo on my first game isn't far from the truth then.

Disappointing really.

Considering release is 1 week away I doubt they'll improve the AI at all.

 

[TLHeart]

Yes that is disappointing to the top players, which is most of the people here... Emperor level is weak, for us....

but look at all the people who do post complaining the emperor is too hard...

The only improvements are those that have been made since the pre release build maddjinn has been playing, and the preload that went live today.

 

[Selereth]

And for all we know those changes could be substantial considering it's been a few weeks since Maddjinn got his pre-release copy, am I right?

I don't expect the AI to be too drastically different from what we've already seen but there could be incremental changes here and there that improve the behaviour, and as it is I am not a pro at this game so I think the 5th level will be sufficiently challenging enough for me.

 

[Lord Shadow]

And for all we know those changes could be substantial considering it's been a few weeks since Maddjinn got his pre-release copy, am I right?

I don't expect the AI to be too drastically different from what we've already seen but there could be incremental changes here and there that improve the behaviour, and as it is I am not a pro at this game so I think the 5th level will be sufficiently challenging enough for me.

In all likelihood, the pre-release build MD got was already somewhat old by the time he received it, so there should've been plenty of time between that and the (almost?) release version that got pushed to preload today.

Things wouldn't be wildly different, but there's enough room for significant improvements to have been made here and there since then.

 

[s0nny80y]

Nuclear weapon analogs have been replaced with offensive abilities that do not require a resource. This is an endgame changer. Remember how nukes pacify even the strongest nations in civ 5?

 

[Lucius_]

Additionally, there could always be a day 1 patch that has been worked on between the Gold build and now. I think they'd have to submit that to Steam on Weds for it to be approved and ready to go at launch.

 

[Acken]

Based on past experience with videogames that sounds like wishful thinking to me.

 

[Haggbart]

That is extremely disappointing. I was hoping for the game to be harder than CiV. What on earth are the devs thinking choping two difficulty levels from the game?

 

[Memoryjar]

If you can play Emperor CivV and win consistently, you'll do fine on Apollo. The only thing to watch is the AI can post sub-300 win times (or earlier if lucky) for the non-dom VCs. The AI will also rush the player 'early' depending on distance between the capitals. Level 2 affinity and some units will cut that down pretty easily.

Granted, this is all 'just for now'. Maybe with patching the AI and game rules will make Apollo harder.

A lot of players can win peaceful on Deity, but a few can domination. It makes sense. They level-up peaceful victory.

I guess it's easier to improve a peaceful AI than one warry balanced to not disgust peaceful players.

 

[Rakshasa72]

A vast majority of Civ players don't play on anything near Apollo/Deity difficulty. so I doubt it's cost effective for them to focus resources on such a small percentile of players who do. In fact I'm betting they probably toned down the difficulty to cater to players who think Civ5 Deity is too hard. People like feeling like they're beating games. Do we really need 50 threads about this? Vocal minority is vocal.

 

[Matthew.]

Not really what the thread was about :/

Only thing I will add is that Civ 5 overall gameplay has changed significantly over the years. You would rush Deity AI with horsemen on vanilla release. No doubt that BE's Apollo will go through just as many changes.